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Speaker 1 (00:00:05):Hello, everyone. Dr. McCrady, here it is. May the 25th. 2023. And we are pleased to have Dr. Hayden here today and, uh, introduction of, uh, Dr. Hayden. Before we begin, um, Dr. Julie Hayden is a licensed psychologist, c o o of Rambus, clinical director of Rambus Counseling LA Mesa Counseling, new vision counseling. And, um, she is here today, um, as the co-chair of the San Diego M F t Consortium and former co-chair of Treatment and Intervention Committee of San Diego Domestic Violence Counsel. Dr. Hayden has a BA in interdisciplinary studies, a master’s in religious studies, masters of Arts in counseling, psychology, and doctorate of psychology. She has 17 years clinical experience, which includes working with chronic mental illness, substance and sexual addictions, adolescents, families, P T S D, depression, anxiety, domestic violence, and more. She has taught at numerous universities, was previously the dean of a local university, and currently co-founder and academic officer of Rambus University. Her passion is to train effective clinicians and bring healing opportunities to all, especially those of underserved populations. Okay, thank
Speaker 2 (00:01:32):You very much.
(00:01:34):Let me share my screen here and we’ll get started. I am very excited for this topic. You’re here at Rambus University, and I hope, uh, shines through as a distinction, uh, that we believe a biblical philosophy or perspective or worldview, uh, on humans, uh, introduces something very special in psychology, that if you come from a biblical perspective, when you look at humans and why we do what we do, and some of the deep questions asked in psychology, uh, the Bible has a lot to say about it and a lot of perspective that can help us. And we could see from a secular standpoint that it’s a model and it’s a perspective from a Christian standpoint, truth . So we get to have, you know, this added, uh, component, maybe the foundational component and psychology’s added, but you know, this, uh, concept of how we view people from a biblical lens, if you will.
(00:02:42):So today is gonna kind of be a summary of what that looks like from our perspective. There’s actually a number of ways that you can view, uh, what we’re gonna talk about today. So this is kind of Dr. Ray Hayden and my, uh, perspective. So very broad. Uh, we’ll kind of step out and look at how we view it as a whole. Uh, something that we coined a term later, we’ll talk about the end applied biblical psychology. And so if you took scripture and it came alive in a psychology to, to view humans, what would that be? So we’re gonna look at a comprehensive view of biblical application in counseling tonight, and a lot of information here, it’s also valuable. So let’s see if I can stay on track and get you the information. And then I hope it’s something, even if you watch this video later, that it kind of marinates, this is gonna be something that you’ll come back to and you’ll think about and put your own personal views and concepts and wrestle with some of it throughout the whole program so that by the time you’re done, you have your philosophy on what it is to be a person of faith or a Christian, or however you view that, uh, in psychology as a therapist.
(00:04:02):So, we’ll dive in and take a look and, and I hope you, uh, feel free to critique and question and add to, because that’s gonna be a piece of it. I can have my view, and I believe it comes from a good place, uh, with a solid biblical foundation as well as experience. But it’s gonna need to be some, you are gonna have to have yours in order for it to be meaningful when you’re out there as a therapist. So, let’s jump in. Just to give you a kind of a top view of what we’re gonna cover today, we’re gonna look at a genesis or creation perspective. First, we’re gonna look at the Christian as a counselor. We’re gonna look at Christianity, uh, in the counseling profession. We’re gonna look at principles at for health and living. And then scripture applied. You know, I love integrating scripture into therapy, but really what we are looking for is when scripture actually is pragmatic and you can utilize it for your life to be better. So that’ll be kind of how we wrap it up at the end. So we’ll go ahead and get, get in and dive in and just come, come to the core to the beginning since we’re in Genesis here. And we’re gonna be looking at the design for humans impact of the fall. And I’m just gonna flip over. I think these are my starting points and I have other, no, okay, I’ll go ahead and let’s see. Yeah, um, sorry, it’s been, I did look at this, but I wanna make sure I don’t go too far.
(00:05:38):Okay. I’ll leave this one up. One thing that you’ll notice in psychology that it, it never has done a very good job with is some of the deep questions of people. And this is kind of a lot of times where therapists seek the profession initially, is when somebody says, why do bad things happen to good people? Or You have a child that’s harmed, or something terrible has happened to personally, there’s a lot of questions we ask. Uh, we wonder why there’s evil in the world. We wonder what’s our meaning or purpose, or why are we here? Even if you have a biblical perspective, you wonder why did God create humans? You know, what is the point of it all? Why did God allow evil and sin? And there’s just a lot of deep questions about humanity that we find in psychology, but we don’t find a lot of answers.
(00:06:37):So when you can come from scripture, you can have answers that are not accessible just from our profession. We have a lot of theorists that have, you know, given their perspective on it. And if you take a theories course, uh, depending on which textbook you’re in, a lot of times you can see what did Freud think about this? What did Carl Rogers think about this? What did Viktor Frankl think about this? And you’ll notice a theme with all of the, the theorists, the foundational fathers of psychology. Their, their, how they viewed it, their philosophies really are based in their experience. You know, Viktor Frankl’s a great example. A lot of his, uh, theory that he developed for us to use as therapists came from his background being in a concentration camp, and he really valued suffering. He thought good things came from it. Well, it was very personal to him.
(00:07:32):And you’ll see that with almost all the theories. So for us to come and have the Bible as that first foundation is very valid and very powerful. So we’ll find answers to some of these deep questions in scripture. And right there at the beginning, if we look at a creation model of God, creating people in his image, we have the design for humans. We can recognize, again, some of the reasons for suffering and things falling apart, and even disease and mental illness. We have reasons for it because we had a a point where we were created perfect. And the impact of the fall, and we’ll look at that in just a moment. And big picture, people have access to purpose. It. We will not always work with those in the Christian community. So we may find it in our faith, a purpose for ourselves and a purpose for our life, or at least believe that God will use what we’ve gone through to some good purpose that we might not see yet.
(00:08:40):Uh, but also we can, we can work with clients and offer some of this. We won’t always have people that will want this integrated in, but it’s truly accessible. We do have a reason for things and we do have a purpose. Uh, so that’s exciting. And what having a biblical perspective can bring to counseling and the field of psychology. So let’s just take a little bit of a deeper perspective on these concepts. So if you do go back, I, I used to say Genesis one through three, I’d probably include chapter four. Now, uh, there’s some other good things that come out of chapter four, but definitely chapter one through three, if you go back and you read and you take a look, you see humans created perfect in God’s image. And even if you slow that down, you watch how God created. And he evaluated his creation and he goes, and, and he doesn’t have to if he’s God and he creates so easily, he could just have it done.
(00:09:42):But he goes methodically. And he, he has an existence of, you know, uh, the chaos that the Holy Spirit’s hovering over. And he divides and he separates, and he labels and he divides a light from the dark, and he divides water and chaos, if you will, from land and from order. And these things are happening. These deep concepts of humanity are happening right there at the beginning of Genesis. And he labels it is good. He goes through and he’s creating it. It is good. It is good. And then he comes to man and says, it is not good. And we see right there at the beginning that a man is incomplete all by himself, and we’re built for relationships. And he takes woman out of man the rib and creates eve. And now together, they, it is good. He creates man and woman and labels it, it is good.
(00:10:42):And he tells them, go multiply and subdue the earth. So right there at the begi beginning of creation, that’s repeated multiple times later, he says to Adam and Eve, go multiply and subdue the earth. So you have, uh, seed offspring right there, man, woman offspring. You have that family unit again, core of humanity and God’s purpose for humans on earth, right there in the beginning of Genesis. Of course, it doesn’t take long. Satan comes and, uh, disrupts what God designed. Of course, God knew this and he has a broader purpose for it. But right there, you see Satan attacking at out of me Eve and trying to divide them. And you see them disobeying and a curse coming. You have, uh, because of their disobedience, you have sin entering the world. You have sin in a big picture that every human after that will carry through the lineage of Adam will carry sin.
(00:11:43):They will start with sin in a separation from God. And then you also have just sin, you know, in the world. So you have a cursed earth. You have, you know, people are gonna grow old and die. We’re gonna have wrinkles. We’ll have diseases and terrible things happening. You know, a lot will come from that. We’ll have broken relationships. And, uh, interesting there in chapter three, we see these curses laid out. And one of them is a curses to Satan that there will be enmity or war between Satan seed and women’s seed. And that’s genetic, biological, sexual. Yeah, it’s very real. That there is a war between Satan seed and woman’s seed, right there at the beginning of creation. So this, I’ll just pause here. This is what started Rambus , okay? So, so there was a day, and Dr. Ray talked about it when Ray was, you know, Dr.
(00:12:47):Ray was studying Genesis and understanding this, you know, enmity i’ll reme. I remember the day very vividly and thinking Satan attacks a family. It’s strategic, it works. He’s smart. He attacks a family because he knows it will take out the society because he’s against humans. It truly is against humankind. Is is the war, right? So we wanted to strengthen families as a counterattack to what was happening. And then we looked for platforms. How are we going to strengthen families? So that, that’s kind of our foundation and where Rambus came from in, in a general sense. Uh, but it also reminds us what we’re doing and kind of our vision for the future. What can we do to equip people so that we can strengthen families? Because we know that’s gonna have the biggest impact on our communities and for the kingdom. Not just to have a, a healthy, strong community, but we want people to come to know Christ and to be a part of the kingdom.
(00:13:52):Something that will last for eternity, not just for today. So Christ brings restoration. We have sin, we have a cursed world, we have a broken relationship with God. And then if you just zoom forward to when Christ comes, God enters his creation to restore the relationship, to fix the system that was broken through sin. And so that’s very powerful. And, uh, Christ brings that ability to have the restored relationship with God. It also with that would bring the Holy Spirit for us, which we’ll talk about later. And it brings purpose to this world. So we have this concept that is needed for humans that’s not there in just traditional psychology. We have hope. And this is powerful. This is why, you know, I think there’s a lot of reasons why Christians go into the helping professions, but we are good at hope. You know, we know that, that Christ can transform a life.
(00:14:57):We know that wherever a person comes from, whatever you’re looking at right here today, uh, that life can be completely restored and transformed. And we have hope a little different than an average person would. And then from Genesis especially, and kind of natural to Christianity, we love the family unit. You know, we know that it’s core. We know that it’s a building block for churches, for organizations, and businesses for the government. Family is a core unit that other things are built on. And if we can have strong, healthy families, we can actually protect our entire society. So a lot of what we do as therapists comes actually from Genesis, even if we weren’t fully aware of it. And definitely tied in what could seem like a, a scattered picture. You could look at the problems of society, domestic violence, um, people having affairs or casual sex and abortion and, um, you know, the, uh, gay agenda, the, the things that are out there that possibly could be counter to humans multiplying as of doing the earth.
(00:16:13):That the counter some of what Genesis is looking at, uh, and the problems people need help with. Its, it’s not on accident. There is a theme. A lot of it has to do with breaking down the family unit, and it has to do with, uh, being against humans. Uh, so that’s just interesting. There’s a theme throughout whatever you think of some of these topics, they definitely represent a theme. If you’re looking at it from a genesis perspective, that’s worth paying attention to, it’s worth understanding. So these, this is from Genesis, and this is kind of where we start that can inform how we’re viewing humans and then how we’re gonna help people when we come with our tools.
(00:17:04):Christians as a counselor, and I’m gonna definitely open this up for some, some thoughts on this as well. Uh, first of all, we have natural qualities, you know, uh, all of us, just because we’re human, according to scripture, we are given talents, not just spiritual gifts, which is another component we have here too, but we’re naturally inclined. Uh, you have those that maybe are highly intelligent or highly athletic or you know, they are, they have creative thinking, whatever it is, there’s probably some natural qualities that a person has, uh, that can be used in a lot of different ways. So if you just look at, uh, uh, Christian in general, sometimes there’s some natural qualities that lends itself to counseling. And we’ll take a look at that in a little bit, in a little more depth. We also have the Holy Spirit. Uh, this is obviously extremely powerful.
(00:18:04):So I’m just gonna pause on this one. Actually, lemme see if I go into detail of these or if I just used the slide. Yeah. Okay, I do go. So let me go to, let me do natural qualities and then we’ll come back and I wanna ask you some questions on the Holy Spirit. But this is the summary of what we’re gonna go to next. Natural qualities, holy Spirit, spiritual gifts. Oftentimes we have a life dedicated to helping others heal. And Christ’s example, these come natural to us as counselors. So natural qualities, I used to in person have a big whiteboard , and I’d say, tell me the qualities you’ll love in a na, in a, in a counselor, just say a high quality counselor. So I’ll do that right now. If you’d like to chat in the chat box, or if you want to just unmute, I put some here. But what are those qualities that you think of when you think of a good counselor? Somebody that’s gonna be, if you’re gonna go to a counselor, you want them to have these qualities. Go ahead and just list some of those for me.
Speaker 3 (00:19:09):Dr. Hayden, can I jump in? Yes. Mm-hmm. . Um, I think I really think about that goal of getting to know Jesus Christ. And I think about, um, his being a peacemaker and, um, all of his Christ like qualities of empathy and compassion, which is they’re both listed here. Hope, um, faith, um, doing good works. Um, being selfless. So, so many Christ-like, uh, qualities. I
Speaker 2 (00:19:38):A absolutely, so Christ would be the cheat sheet, you know, if we did truly emulate ourselves as Christ, and then we went to be a counselor, you know, , like that’s a good way to have a headstart. You know, it how he was, even to his strategic questioning that would confront people in a gentle way. Oh my goodness, you know, wrapped up it that up in a, in a counseling tool. And you, you’re ready. You know? So there’s so much about who Christ was and how he was on Earth that we can pull from that is tangible. It’s real and pragmatic. Go use these tools from model being modeled after Christ, and you’re gonna be in a good spot. Very good. I’ve got some chats here. Good listener, compassion forgiving. Yes, open, nonjudgmental, yes. Even with that, think of who Christ was comfortable sitting with, being, with, listening to.
(00:20:40):You know, he obviously judged when it was time to judge, uh, but he, he approached people very non-judgmentally. You know, that there’s ways those two work together. Uh, you can accurately judge something and be a person who accepts and loves. Good. I love that. Accepting unconditionally. Uh, you know, I, I have a four month old now, and I, I, I have a 13 and a 15 year old, so, uh, there’s this big gap, but I am remembering what I remember with my first, where you go, oh, now I get it unconditional. Love it. It’s hard even to understand, but when, when you have a child, I think you get close to it where you think would not matter what this kid does, . Like, I just love them, and as they get older, it might get a little trickier. We’re not God, but I got a glimpse of what it must be like, you know, for the Almighty God to love us as children unconditionally and what that could mean for us to give that to others. For sure.
Speaker 4 (00:21:47):If I’m a Christian walking into a Christian counselor, I would truly feel the Holy Spirit if it’s the right person for me. So for me as a person, the Holy Spirit would just shine through Yep. That that would be for me.
Speaker 2 (00:22:03):Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and I know exactly what you’re talking about, and I have a spot here for the Holy Spirit. So I’ll talk a little bit about what that is for me as a, as a therapist and, and it’s, uh, my favorite secret weapon, . So I’ll, I’ll talk a little bit about it. Anything else anyone can think of? So on the whiteboard, if, if, if I was writing all of these there, there would be a lot. And then when I’m done, I would say, now tell me which of these, uh, does just a mature Christian have, you know, brand new Christian or some, it doesn’t mean every Christian has all these qualities, but if you’re strong in your faith and you’re a mature Christian, yeah, you do have these naturally the fruit, right? The fruits of the Holy Spirit and the fruit of a walk with God.
(00:22:55):And so we’d go around and we’d circle that and, and it was just this obvious truth that if you are a Christian walking with God with that strong relationship, you probably already have a lot of the qualities that we hope a counselor has. Not, not everything’s like that. It is, uh, exciting to know you start off in a good spot, holy Spirit, holy, uh, this is very powerful. You literally have God that speaks to you about a situation. Now how he does that, you know, it could be different for different people, but for me, I always knew through prayer, and it was nothing ever audible, but it was a sense that if I came in ready to counsel and I was ready to work hard and do a good job that was very different, I would be exhausted and depleted and, you know, 50 50 chance I got it right, you know?
(00:23:57):But if I was, you know, aware and I’m praying and asking the Holy Spirit to lead me to identify the most important pieces that I need to go after and to connect on a spiritual level with people, it’s a very different experience. It, it was definitely less exhausting, you know, it felt different. Uh, it drained me less, but also things would happen that I couldn’t explain where I would know. I have no idea where that came from. It was just right. It was dead on perfect for the person, but I don’t, I know it was not me thinking of that. It came from the Holy Spirits leading, and, and it’s very important. Uh, it would be a shame to miss that. Of course, in my spirit, I, in my, uh, flesh, I would miss it. I would work hard, go in, and then later go, oh, why did I do this?
(00:24:51):So you have to be it strong in your relationship with God and then actively yielding. I love that, how it’s active, but it’s a yield to the Holy Spirit. But you’re right, uh, you can sense the Holy Spirit in a room. I was praying with people today, it was interesting, and I, I just went, oh yeah, you know, this is what this is. Like, when you are praying and you connect on a, a very spirit level with someone, you feel it, you know it. So if, uh, the other person’s a believer, that’s gonna be very important. And you can’t describe that to somebody that’s not a believer. They will not fully understand that. And that’s okay, uh, because I have a lot of non-believers that might counsel and they’re good at what they do. And so from their perspective, you know, what’s the big deal?
(00:25:40):And they can be great therapists. I had a wonderful therapist that was not a believer, but, uh, there’s something different that, that we know we want. And, and that’s us, something to respect. And clients, if a client wants that, uh, they, it’s not gonna be with somebody that doesn’t have the Holy Spirit. It just, you know, uh, but spirit versus flesh, we could easily be good at what we do and get in our flesh and use a tool, and we might even do some good, uh, but we have this ability to be in the spirit. And, uh, how you’re gonna need to read your Bible more to get a good, deep understanding of this. Uh, there’s a lot of verses on it, so you have plenty to look at. But a, a good strong walk with God and an understanding of how to yield to the spirit and listen to the spirit, and you’re gonna be in a good spot with that.
(00:26:35):You have discernment, so rightly dividing, and that’s important because we do judge not judgment, but we can separate the lies versus truth. We can separate, uh, chaos versus order. And we have the ability, we might have the spiritual gift of discernment. And that is even, even more advantageous if you’re therapist. But all believers have access to discernment through the Holy Spirit. Um, this is a, a very important secret weapon. And then there really are demonic influences in, in the world. If you take a literal interpretation of scripture, then that’s real. And yet there really are mental health difficulties. And you, they can be very biological. And for example, if you give somebody L dopa, which is a medication used for Parkinson’s disease, they can have psychosis and see things in here. Things like with schizophrenia, there may not be a demon involved in that. Uh, but if you’re a believer and you are, uh, in the spirit, you tend to know.
(00:27:44):Now, everybody has different opinions on, on some of this, but there is, for me, there is a sense that you can distinguish oftentimes, uh, if something’s demonic or something’s a mental health, uh, situation, which is really important because there really are mental health difficulties. And for me, that comes out of, uh, perspective in Genesis on the curse. Our bodies are cursed. So yes, we can have diabetes and we can have, uh, heart disease, and we can have bipolar, whatever you think about diagnosing or medication. That’s kind of a side topic that’s really fun to argue. But definitely there’s biological components and there’s reasons for mental health that is not always tied to demonic influences. So that’s important for us to be able to discern. And then the Holy Spirit gives us an anchor. Uh, actually, I’ve heard it say it’s probably in here somewhere. I steal it from Dr.
(00:28:49):Ray, but it’s like an anchor, a map, and a compass, , you know? So it’s all of it. But, uh, the Holy Spirit can give us a stability and, um, put us in the right direction and keep us on track and keep us going in where that client needs to go for health. So that’s, uh, an important role of the Holy Spirit, and we have access to it, putting us, we, we may not always use this well, but we could have an advantage over those that wouldn’t have access to this in this field. So it’s not just, uh, yes, we’re a counselor and Christian, but we can be exceptional, uh, if we take the right path because of some of these advantages that not everybody has access to.
(00:29:38):I don’t wanna go too fast that I missed some questions or comments, so I’ll pause a little bit here. We’ve got, for those that came on late, we had natural qualities that come to us, uh, just because we’re a Christian, hopefully mature in our faith, the, the natural qualities in us as going to all lend us to be in a good counselor, the Holy Spirit. And just a couple verses that you can go to later that would just lend itself to these concepts. Ephesians four 14 through 16, uh, anybody wanna read this? I’ll bring some others in here. I think this is, has to do with the gyroscope concept.
Speaker 5 (00:30:21):I can read it,
Speaker 2 (00:30:23):Go for it.
Speaker 5 (00:30:25):Uh, that we hands forth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slate of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in, wait to deceive, but speaking the truth and love may grow up in him in all things, which is the head, even Christ from whom the whole body, uh, fits, fitly, joined together and compacted by that which every jointly according to the effectual working, and the measure of every part, make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself and love.
Speaker 2 (00:31:14):Very good. And you can picture, just picture our society. And I would see society more as, uh, tossed to and fro . You know, we’re struggling out there right now. So to be able to have, you know that stability is, is gonna be important, and we get to access that first John four, one, dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they’re from God. Because many false prophets have gone out into the world again, talking about discernment from the Holy Spirit. And for the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul, spirit joints tomorrow. It judges the thoughts and attitudes of heart. So the Bible will do this for people, do this for ourselves, and we get to access this as Christians, uh, in, in the counseling field. We do know we’re not always gonna work with Christians, but when we get the chance, this is powerful.
(00:32:18):And in our PowerPoint slide tonight, we’ll look at things that can benefit, even if somebody is not a believer. And, you know, we already had Heidi talking about the example of Christ, but, uh, oftentimes with like motivational interviewing or some of the tools you’ll learn in therapy, they’ll use Colombo as an example, which I love. So that the TV show the murder mystery, and he, you know, is kind of fumbling around and, and so sweet and kind. And then at some point he goes, oh, just one more question, and then whatever that question is, it just, you know, solves the case. And it’s, you know, the guy’s going to jail like it’s da da. And there’s, there’s some, uh, strategies like that in therapy. But I see how Christ was like that. Of course, Christ came first, uh, but he had that sense about him where he asked questions and he was kind, and he would challenge, but it wouldn’t be so direct.
(00:33:22):And he really, uh, made people think for themselves. Um, so all, all that he offered as an example of something very powerful to us. And then of course, he had a kingdom perspective. He was there helping people right in the moment, but what he was doing was for eternity. And he wanted us to live in a kingdom perspective. So I’ll just read Matthew, here he is at the time, preaching as if the kingdom could come. We know it didn’t come right then. Uh, he was, uh, his purpose was to die and rise from the dead to, to, to bring salvation. So the kingdom is still yet to come, but, uh, he’s speaking, you know, as if the kingdoms come. And at any moment, for I was hungry and you gave me meat, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger, and you took me in naked and you clothed me, I was sick, and you visited me, I was in prison, and you came unto me, then shall all shall the righteous answer Him saying, Lord, when we saw the, when did we see you hungry or feed you thirsty and give you a drink?
(00:34:31):And goes down the list. And he says, verily I say unto you. And as much as you have done unto one of the least of these, my brethren, you have done unto me. So it hits home that, um, those in society, that people may not want to help me. It might not see worthy of our help. It’s exactly who Christ is looking to. Are we helping them? And to whoever the least is that’s, uh, who we represent. It’s representative of us help doing what we need to for Christ. So it goes at a very deep level that we need to be there for anyone on the hierarchy of our society. We’re gonna, we’re gonna treat humans. Humans each bring a value because they’re human and they’re made in the image of Christ. And so that I think is very powerful for us. And Christ had that example when he is on earth. And oftentimes when people come to the counseling profession, that’s exactly what they’re wanting, is to reach underserved populations that others may not be helping. Um, so that’s a, a wonderful perspective for Christians to understand is how did Christ do it and copy it.
(00:35:46):Spiritual gifts, this is huge. We were all given spiritual gifts at the time of salvation, having then gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, whether prophecy let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith or ministry, let us wait on our ministry. Or he that teaches on teaching or he that exhorted on exor exhortation, he that giveth let him do it with simplicity. He that ruleth with diligence, he that showeth mercy with cheerfulness and first Corinthians four to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom to another, the word of knowledge by the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by the same spirit to another working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another diverse kinds of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues. Many lists within scripture of spiritual gifts given to us to be used in the body of Christ. But as counselors, if you have the gift of discernment, if you have the gift of teaching, if you have the gift of exhortation, oh yeah, that’s gonna benefit you. You’re gonna be able to use that in a very powerful way. Uh, that again, is a little extra on top of what psychology and theory and other wonderful counselors bring to the table. We have this next level ability given by God and the Holy Spirit that we can use, uh, real quick anything from spiritual gifts, Christ example, holy Spirit or natural qualities before we keep moving.
Speaker 3 (00:37:34):I think, um, for myself, something that was really helpful was when someone said it’s important to ask for all of the gifts. Like it’s okay, , it’s okay to not, like I kind of started, when I started in thinking about spiritual gifts really seriously decades ago. I, um, I was thinking, but like maybe I could have like one or two. And so I said, no, you know, you can, you can ask for access to the power of God by willingness to exercise faith in the Christ-like light, um, and ask for the Holy Spirit to like teach you all of them. It’s fine, . So I was very glad for that suggestion.
Speaker 2 (00:38:12):Absolutely. And you can see in context of scripture, the purpose of the spiritual gifts is for edification of the body of Christ. So how are you gonna use it in the body of Christ? Your local belief is around you and you’re gonna fit nicely in there and then all coming together as one. And Christ is the head. So there may be some purpose he has for exactly what he’s given you. And at the same time, even in a moment, maybe you don’t have the gift of faith, you can have faith, you know, he can gift it to you, uh, whenever he wants. So you have two sides of that. You have, yes, he purposely gifts people for the body of Christ and he has a plan for it. And it’s his order, uh, that he is described, you know, after acts and on, you know, he is described what that timeframe in history is gonna be with the church.
(00:39:05):Uh, but also he does miracles. He does whatever he wants. He’s God. So that’s the fun part too, is through the Holy Spirit, yes, you can have access to much more than just what may be obvious as a spiritual gift that that seemed to be there almost innately when you were for saved, you know, something specifically to be used for the body of Christ. A anything can be given to you by God if he so chooses. And of course, he tends to work out faith , you know, that all the scripture verses associated with receiving something from God also seem to be with faith. So that’s, I I love that.
Speaker 4 (00:39:47):I would love to meet somebody around here anywhere that is, has the gift of physical healing and also that, I mean, that, that would be amazing for me. And also, um, would you consider, um, the gift of tons, uh, self edifying? I mean, it, I know it says that. And how would you perceive that? And I know that it’s kind of like off topic, maybe we should talk about later. Sure. I’m not sure.
Speaker 2 (00:40:14):Well, I can give you like a mini version because I actually love theology, so I’d love to go on a tangent, but then we’ll lose track and we’ll go into a rabbit hole, okay? But I will use it a little bit, uh, to, I’ll start with tongues because it’s easier. So there could really be, you know, the gift of tongues and, and when it was used in acts, you know, people spoke other languages immediately and the gospel spread over the entire world and people knew how to interpret it. So there were were reasons for it. It was something you could see live in action. It was very powerful. And whether you see that all the time today or not, obviously is perfectly, god’s perfectly capable of having that used. You, you might see it more in other countries than here, I don’t know. But it, it’s something very tangible and, uh, whatever the purpose is for it, the idea is if you’re gifted in something, it’s so God can use you in a powerful way to edify the body of Christ.
(00:41:15):Well, I don’t have the gifted tongues in that manner, but I always joke that I have a gifted tongues because there, there’s something about me and how I communicate with people. It does not matter if I know the language or not. I can always communicate . And so I, that’s stretching it a bit. So don’t pretend like I think the Bible said out the gift of tongues, but I thought it was, I’ve always thought it was interesting that whatever situation I’m in, it seems like even if I don’t know a person’s language, I can always communicate really well. And this has been over multiple times in multiple settings that this has happened. So I always joke, so is there something out of some of these gifts that goes beyond what we, you know, have a picture of? I don’t know. I do know for healing, I’ve never seen it.
(00:42:02):And if somebody had the gift of healing, like, like scripture de describes it. I mean, of course I see healing all the time, but in, in how scripture described it, where, you know, you’re in the shadow of Paul or he touches, you know, uh, napkin or you know, whatever, you know, I have not seen that. And maybe that has to do with our society and it is happening in other places. Maybe it has to do with other things. I don’t know. But I do know there was a time as well in looking at E M D R in particular, and we talked a little bit about it, where it’s how the brain works natural. And to me it’s very biblical and it’s lies versus truth. And in the end you’re, you’re helping a person in a biological sense heal so that they are, they, they understand truth at a very deep body level and it’s healing.
(00:42:55):And I could just picture for whatever reason, going to other countries, , and yes, I’m doing E M D R, but I picture just going and healing, you know? And if, if somebody was called to that, I can’t just go to another country right now and do this, but I, I just had this picture of, oh my gosh, I just want to, you know, so there’s, there’s spiritual gifts where you see them so obvious, you know, um, there it is. You know, I, I I recognize that, I know it, I see it. And then maybe there’s a gifting that we might not always see so easily, you know? Or maybe those are just miracles, I don’t know. Uh, but, but it’s something that’s at least worth being open-minded. Uh, you know, I have a theology around it, but then I go, but God could do whatever he wants, .
(00:43:46):Cause he’s God, for example, God could heal. Uh, but, and, and faith can heal and sometimes it doesn’t. Uh, if you look at Old Testament, new Testament, old Testament, it was tick for Ack, how he set it up. Israel, if you obey me, I will bless you. If you go against me, I will bring another nation to conquer you. And this cycle went on forever, right? Tick, protect New Testament. Uh, he says, you have all your blessings and sufferings come in, you know, it’s different. We’re not guaranteed a happiness. We’re not guaranteed, uh, that everything’s gonna be great. We’re guaranteed suffering. We can have joy under the tribulations, up under it. So, so in looking at scripture, this timeframe is a timeframe where we might not be blessed how we want to, but in, in the proper perspective, we are already blessed. We have all the blessings.
(00:44:49):So, so that’s a little different as well. It’s a, it’s a tangent, but, uh, the idea that God can heals there, faith can heals there, but he might not, because right now we may need to suffer and maybe there’s a purpose we can’t see in the future. And helping people understand that properly is important because people may put a lot of shame and guilt that they’re not healed because they don’t have enough faith. That’s gonna be something you will see often. Well, there’s a difference between a person’s sin resulting in something and sin, because we live in a cursed world. So if you do have bipolar disorder, I don’t know if it was your day you sinned, that brought that upon yourself, probably it’s because the whole world’s cursed. You have biological agents that that can predispose somebody to mental illness. You have trauma in childhood that affects the brain development.
(00:45:50):And yes, God could heal, but also maybe he won’t. And it could be that, that he uses us to intervene in people’s lives in a powerful way. He definitely uses relationships and connection to heal. So creative, not creatively, but, um, critically thinking about these topics is really important because people will ask you, they will want to know if God could heal, why doesn’t he heal me? And if God can heal, why do I need a therapist? So, you know, that’s something to, to consider. Oh my gosh, that’s so cool. Uh, Camry, I’m reading your, your response there, . That’s awesome. Okay, let’s keep going guys, cuz this is good. I wanna get to as much as I can. So, so real quick, we’re gonna look at historical context, relevance, and the concept in scripture repeated multiple times. You’ll know them by their fruits. So parable of the talents beware.
(00:47:01):Oh, what’s this one? Matthew seven. Okay, this is not, I’ll just touch on the parable of the talents. So if you remember the story, uh, you know, the, I don’t even know if I can use the proper terminology, but landlord or boss, , you know, uh, gave, you know people as he is leaving, you know, small, medium, large. Just go with me here guys. , okay? Uh, and you know, you have the person that buried it cuz they were scared, they didn’t wanna lose it or, or they were afraid that the, that he was gonna be upset if they, if they lost it, you had some investing it, you know, those, the, the one that had a large amount invested a lot and got a lot back and, you know, have all this. And when, when the landlord came back and he’s seen what they had, you know, he’s happy with the ones that whatever they had, they used, they used it all and it brought back increase.
(00:47:58):And he was happy with that. The one that took their talent and hid it to protect it, uh, he was not happy with. And so just thinking, what talents do we have and how much do we put out there and do we pour in? And interesting enough, I think this could even tie into burnout. I think if you love what you do, you’re probably not gonna have trouble with burnout. You may have trouble with being exhausted. I am very exhausted tonight and you know, I’m excited to be here. So you can hear me. Very glad to be here. I’m physically exhausted, but I’m not burnt out because I love what I do and I’m using my talents and what I’ve been gifted for. So that’s a, a good sign that you’re in a good spot if, if you get excited and you’re passionate, even though you, it’s taking a lot.
(00:48:51):Um, if you’re worn out completely and you don’t wanna continue, maybe it’s not the talent. Maybe you, you thought it was a good path and, and it’s not. Uh, of course people can always burn themselves out, don’t get me wrong. But it is, it is a theme. You’ll see that we all do a lot because we’re passionate and we care and we wanna make an impact. And if you come from the parable of the talents in, invest it all and get a ton back and then invest it all, you know, this is, is something very wise. Uh, so you’ll have a different person teaching you on protecting burnout, cuz that’s important too, but I’ll say, go for it. . So fruits, this is also a theme. I’ll look at Matthew here, but it’s in other locations. Beware false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing.
(00:49:42):But in inwardly they are raving wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns and or figs of thistles even so a good tree bring a forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bring us forth Evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bring us not fourth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire where four, we’ll know them by their fruits. I’ll just sum it up like that. This is powerful. And you can use this if you have somebody trying to teach you something about something first. Look at their fruits. , you know, somebody’s, uh, uh, teaching about something that they, they do not seem to have evidence for. It doesn’t mean they don’t have good information on it, but it’s worth considering.
(00:50:34):And for us, do we have fruits? You know, do we have outcomes? Can you look and see for a therapist the people they’re helping, are they moved in a positive way? Are their lives changed? Are they doing that? We can’t always control that we can pour in and, and nothing happens because of the person, not because of us, but in a general sense, broadly, we are likely to see fruits of our labor. Uh, so that something, and it’s something that we can expect eventually and even have hope for the problem sometimes is we might want it sooner, you know, than it will come, uh, when you plant, uh, even Paul describing planted others watered and Christ brought the harvest. So we may not always be able to bring that outcome we want, uh, but we put in that effort. But you’ll see fruits, and this will be natural, that comes with what we’re doing with coming to the helping profession.
(00:51:40):Therapy, counseling from a a Christian perspective, a biblical philosophy. We have principles for health and life. This is more if you do not have a Christian client, these work, okay? This works for anyone. These are principles because of how God created people and how the universe works, which oftentimes you’ll find right there in genesis patterns built into creation. And these are just some of them. You reap what you sow. And the thing about patterns is it’s not every single time. You know, we have people that are, I, I I’ll never forget I had, he’s famous, actually had a pastor that, uh, I could tell was a con man. And, uh, I left the church, but he dragged on being successful for a long time. So if you looked at him during his successful days, you would think, oh man, he is powerful preacher, good preacher, you know, and you could see him doing good things around him.
(00:52:45):And so you could look, but, but he, you, if, if you had knew the internal workings of the church, you could see there was things that not, did not line up. And so me on the outside, once I left, I could be irritated sometimes and just think like, why is he prospering when he is not who he says he is? And he, it looked like he was rewarded for that for years. And then one day, you know, did catch up to him and he did end up back in prison and, uh, and had some consequences. So reap what you sow is not immediate, it’s a principle. And in addiction, I would teach this often because in addiction, you want it right now, right? So I’d say there’s two roads, one over here, something fantastic, amazing. You could have it right now. Ooh, that’s shining bright over there.
(00:53:37):Go get it. And then you’re probably gonna, it’s gonna be wonderful. And then you’re gonna lose it and have nothing to show for it. Or this other road that’s very long and slow and hard and you know, you, you wonder why you’re even doing it till one day you get something of worth and you can keep it. And so just those two roads. So you reap what you saw is definitely a pattern built in that not many would argue is there. And yet it may not be in our timing, but it’s a principle everybody can expect we can bring into the counseling session. There is a season for everything. Looking at eccl Ecclesiastes that helps people understand there’s a season for suffering, for crying, for mourning. There’s a season for ha happiness. These are principles that we recognize. Our society says you deserve to be happy.
(00:54:34):Go get it. Keep happiness. But we know that’s not realistic from a biblical perspective. We know suffering’s gonna come, but even more than that, we know suffering brings value. If you look at scripture, it talks about how tribulations produce perseverance and per perseverance produces care character in a person and character produces hope. So some of the difficulties we’re going through today may give us hope for the future and build us up as people of character to have perseverance to withstand what’s coming. That’s wonderful. And I, again, I I do have a background working with addiction for a lot of years, so it’ll tie into my examples a lot. But I’d bring this in and I would ask the guys in, in like a group format, when has suffering brought you something good? And they’d always have interesting stories, they could definitely identify it, but if we didn’t overtly talk about it in their mind they’re thinking, I wanna be happy, I wanna get rid of this pain, I wanna seek, you know, uh, a pleasure.
(00:55:41):But when they stopped, they could recognize how suffering can bring something good, something of value right there in creation and scripture. You have family, man, woman offspring as a core unit and the value of that and strengthening that, you have hard work right there. And the value and what can come in with identity. You know, that’s an interesting component. If you have gotten into the theories class, Adler talks a lot about a person’s need to have mastery. And so you feel that sense of that you have accomplished something and how important it is. So, uh, all of that’s right there in, I’m just checking on my little baby cuz we hear her make sure they’re all taking care of her . Uh, you have concepts like money, women, okay? Just read proverbs. You, you get a lot on money or, or at least resources, managing resources properly, and you get, you know, avoiding sexual temptation and, and things like that.
(00:56:49):So there’s a lot on, on money, on women, on greed, on, uh, anger. Okay? It talks about that communication, your tongue words on rashness, you know, that being too fast to act or slow down and be wise. Uh, wisdom actually is huge. Like in Proverbs, and you could read Proverbs, a person, anybody could read Proverbs and follow it and their life would be better. They do not have to be a believer. Of course that doesn’t help eternity, but it could help their life. So all these principles can be integrated into counseling in a powerful way that will work even if somebody doesn’t know where they’re coming from or have a biblical perspective.
Speaker 3 (00:57:36):Dr. Hayden, are you saying that, um, I just wanna make sure I understand that we can introduce some of these, um, beautiful proverbs, uh, just as philosophy and talk about that in the course of the session if someone’s an unbeliever. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:57:51):Yeah. Yes. Uh, I think you always have to be wise, but I’ll never forget in one of the DV groups, I think Dr. Reio will remember this one. We, we were cracking up over it. So there was a gentleman that was an atheist. So we have a couple counselors, they’re just gonna bring up God no matter what, you know, that it’s just gonna come somewhere. So he would get very frustrated and he didn’t want anything, you know, religious brought into the group, which is fine, you know, that actually is standard protocol and we’re careful about that. And, and we ask permission and we do a few things to just make it okay for people. But this gentleman was kinda adamant atheist, I don’t wanna hear it. Well, I don’t know who put on the whiteboard of Proverbs , but they did not quote Proverbs, you know, they just put it on the whiteboard and he comes up and he is like, oh, that is good.
(00:58:41):Takes a picture of it and walks out. And I just laugh. So yes, of course. And so a lot of times what I would do is, you know, there, some people say, you know, or there’s a thought out there that, and so I bring some things in like that. Um, you know, you know, there’s a saying, you reap what you sow. You know, that somebody just said when it was like, yeah, I’ve heard that before. You know, even I remember the front of a psychology today. Uh, it was exactly word for word scripture. I don’t, I don’t remember it offhand, but like, there’s a season for everything kind of thing. Like out of Ecclesiastes word for word, as if it was their idea. like, hey, you stole that. But you know, in, you could use it in a good way. You know, there’s, there’s a proverb, you can even say that because proverb means more than proverb out of scripture.
(00:59:41):There’s a proverb that says there’s a time for mourning, there’s a time for, i, i i don’t remember the list. You know? Uh, and sometimes that helps people have a context for being humans on earth. There’s gonna be these times that come to our life. So of course, again, I would always say using discernment is gonna be a piece of all we do and thinking, is this going to be valuable? There is a difference between the Bible and many other resources. It’s literally pragmatic. It. If you followed instructions, it would actually work to improve a life. So again, you’re not gonna say, scripture says that marriage is between a man and a woman and you’re in sin. You know, like there, there’s, even though there may be truth that could benefit a person’s life, you are using discernment, uh, work ethic, you know? Um, give me some of them guys.
(01:00:41):What, what are some things that these principles, uh, being slow to anger, you literally taking that phrase outta scripture, I believe, and I’m sure it’s in here, that scripture is in and of itself God’s word and powerful. So when we can quote it, it will not turn up void according to its own promise. So if I can quote a verse, but in context as if it’s just a concept, I will, so it the idea of, uh, quick, give me the verse guys, quick to anger, slow to speak. So to, you know what I’m talking about, Dr. Prophet on Help me, you know what I’m talking about though, everybody. Right? Slow
Speaker 3 (01:01:32):1, 19, 20. Let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
Speaker 2 (01:01:41):Yes. So you just take those three things and you say them, you know. Now if I was, um, my theologian brain, I would say don’t think, don’t take the out context. But you can still have that in consideration when you’re talking. I have had counselors use random verses for whatever they wanted to say in the moment, inappropriately taking it outta context. I do not agree with that. Uh, you can make scripture say whatever you want, that’s not what I’m talking about. But if it’s appropriately used, uh, then just saying the words slow to, slow to speak, slow to be angry, that’s very valuable in my opinion. To, to use when it’s appropriate
Speaker 6 (01:02:23):Or exa. Good example might be, um, uh, wives, uh, respect your husbands period. Um, as opposed to, you know, going further, meaning, you know, the husband also has an obligation to love the wife. So it’s reciprocal, right? It could be misinterpreted, uh, that way, that it’s not complete, so to speak. I think, I don’t know if that’s
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):Something to, yes, it’s a great example, and I, I’ve specifically addressed that many times because that is a common one, taken outta context by couples. So I will have somebody, and usually it’s in an individual session, but I’ll say, well, you know, they’ll say, uh, you know, uh, wife submit to your husband’s, or something like that. And I’ll go, wait, wasn’t there another part of that verse, , you know, not, that’s how I’ll address that. Like, I thought there was more to that. What, how does it end? You know? And I goof around a bit and bring some humor in, but you bring the fullness of the verse, you know, and what that means. Uh, so, so yeah, that’s a great example of either it taken outta context or helping in a, in a gracious way, people to understand the fullness of an appropriate interpretation of scripture, which you may not have yet.
(01:03:33):So we’ll talk about this, but if you, if you have not studied scripture, well, that’s okay. I would find a way to do it, but I would be more cautious to use it until, you know, you can use it properly. And so then I would lean more on the principles, which I think are a little bit more obvious than using scripture itself, unless you know how to use it in an appropriate way. And that’s because scripture warns in and of itself, you know, if you’re gonna be leading and teaching people scripture, you’re gonna be responsible for it. So that’s where I’d be a little more cautious. So do a good job knowing your Bible and having a strong relationship with God if you’re gonna bring scripture in. Otherwise, I do think the principles are probably, uh, much more easily applied that you can bring in, in some of the ones we’ve been talking about.
(01:04:30):Okay, so here is again, where I would say, uh, I would, and this is me personally, professionally too, as a, so I’ve got, I’ve got my Bible side and my psychology side. So definitely my Bible side. I believe in rightly divid, dividing the word of God that you spend in depth time, understanding scripture before you use it. But my goodness, are there a lot of scriptures that are, I say the word pragmatic, very specifically that there are scripture that teach you about these things that are very helpful, that if you use them, it will make your relationships better. It will be, uh, an improvement of your life. And so that you can use scripture in, in therapy that will benefit the person in a very tangible way, not just because they can trust in God or have faith in God that are all real things as well.
(01:05:31):But say this, do this and your life will be better. Uh, it is, there’s a lot there. So if you did like a word study on family, and you were looking through scripture and what it says, like somebody, or, um, we could talk about, you know, uh, the wife and husband relationship, but the list of even children to parents. And, you know, there’s, there’s topics on like the dad, not instigating, you know, the child, uh, too far. I, I forget the language around it. There’s specific versus that can really help us in our relationships, uh, versus on marriage versus on thoughts. Take every thought captive. There’s verses that are very much c b T live in action long before C B T came, . And, and yet it’s right there in scripture. There’s verses on emotions, even, even the hardest deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked who can know it?
(01:06:31):Well, just looking at emotions. Obviously emotions are not evil, but they definitely can be deceptive. So just because I feel angry or rage or, or I feel fear, you know, uh, these strong emotions doesn’t mean something’s real. It might be a warning sign, uh, but they, they might be fooling me. So that’s good to know. Scripture has great verses on communication. When I’m teaching assertive communication, I always sum it up as speak the truth in love. I believe that’s Titus, uh, you know, so scripture has these great, really applicable pragmatic statements for people that can actually improve our life. Scripture’s on parenting, uh, I’ve done wisdom versus foolishness, often in addiction, and we can spend a month on that going through Proverbs and other areas of life, uh, of the Bible. Uh, wisdom versus foolishness, very tangibly. If you do this, you’re a fool. , if you do this, you have wisdom, and off we go.
(01:07:38):And you can go apply that to your life, and your life will be better. And definitely the scriptures on suffering, because if we work in this field, people are suffering. So to have scripture tell them why, oh my goodness. I, I would want everyone to have access to that. And if they’re a believer, I can go right to the verse. If not, I love going to the concept. I might say even to a nonbeliever, you know, there’s a list, uh, about suffering that goes, suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character. Character produces hope. And to me, that makes sense. And then I talk a little bit more about it. So there’s ways to use this, even if it’s not overtly quoting scripture. That’s just, it’s a game changer. If you think that you want to be happy and that’s your goal in life, and then this world comes to you, of course you’re gonna use drugs.
(01:08:43):If you have a context to understand that there’s purpose and suffering, it makes sense of it, and you can handle more, and you’re gonna have less P T S D because your brain can make sense of it. So the, all of this is very real and pragmatic. Any other things? Just, there’s so many. So these are just a few to give you examples, but gimme some more topics that have real life. Do this, don’t do this. Here’s some, here’s some great tools for you out of scripture that could be applied in a counseling set setting. Gimme some other examples. Okay, guys, all need to go read your Bible more .
Speaker 4 (01:09:25):Well, okay, don’t, don’t have premarital sex, don’t do drugs, don’t, don’t do, your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Um, zero for cared for it as it is. So there’s lots of things that attribute to that.
Speaker 2 (01:09:41):Yeah, there’s so many. I know that’s what makes the question hard. But, uh, like even premarital sex, and people would say, oh, come on, that was years ago. Well, even in research, and that’s what’s fun about scripture, how it lines up. Even in research though, when you’re looking at like a monogamous relationship long term versus those that might have more casual sex in relationships, uh, those who have been monogamous do show high satisfaction in their relationships. Kind of opposite of what you may guess if, if you’re looking at, you know, um, what culture presents. Uh, so things like that where it actually lines up with scripture that you can test it and see it, it actually can hold its own and is true. So we might believe it’s true, but when it comes to life, it’s hard for people to apply it to their life.
(01:10:30):You know, e especially if they don’t have a relationship with God, that’s kind of obvious. But even if you have a relationship with God, no, it’s not gonna just be a walk in the park here applying scripture to our life. And, and Paul describes it very well, that battle, we still have a sin nature, and we still are just human. And so you have this part of us battling the spirit, and this is a war, and it’s the rest of our life. And, and we’re gonna have, we’re not gonna have it all together. And that’s okay, but we’re in this battle. We’re in this war. So, so with that, um, we don’t even have it all figured out, but to look at scripture and see, hey, this is real. This really works. And could something better in your life, oh, I love it, Mandy. Finance, finances, people forget how much scripture talks about finances and very tangible. If you followed what scripture says about finances, it would be valuable. And sure, you have the concept of greed and, uh, just destroying relationships in an effort to get money and, and fame and some other things. But also the wise use of money is in there too. So you have both sides, uh, encouragement, guidance, uh, that’s fantastic. That’s for us, right? Uh, to help our clients see multiple people involved in getting counsel is gonna be, bring some wisdom. Very good.
(01:12:03):All scripture is breathed out by God. I use that on purpose and profitable for teaching, for proof, for correction, and for training and righteousness that the man of God may be complete equipped for every good work. And there’s a theme in scripture, and that’s definitely there, and I think I have a, a slide on this, but you know, what is all this for? Work, evidence, outcome, you know, so the fruits of the Holy Spirit in us is our good work. So do people look at our life and see that? And it’s our, it’s what’s gonna make it to the kingdom. We, we sometimes forget, you know, it, it’s not work to just be busy and work, but as we’re doing good work in the spirit, that is gonna make it to eternity. You know, that’s what we’re here for. And so, so absolutely, uh, we are, we are having that scripture give us the base to, in the very end, have good work.
(01:13:05):And that’s how people see Christ. That’s, you know, in my opinion, one value of counseling is, you know, that evidence, that outcome of our work can be seen in people in their lives changed. Isaiah, so shall my words be that go forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please and it shall prosper. The thing where to I sent it, and I believe there’s another verse as well, but a scripture is promised to not be void. That if you speak the word of God, it does not turn up void. It’s powerful all by itself.
(01:13:48):And here’s just examples of versus you could use, I believe this is on. Yeah. Uh, thoughts. Finally, brethren, whatever is, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are, just, whatever things are pure whatsoever, things are lovely whatsoever. Things are of good report. If there’s any virtue, and if there’s anything to be praised, think on these things. So if you went around thinking of this list, how would your life change? And then we talked about Jeremiah, heart is deceitful above all things. And just recognizing that emotions can fools. And here I did have this example, Wendy. No, is it, uh, I had your name last time, right? And I don’t know if I’m gonna say it again, but I want to practice to make sure I get it. Uh, Jo, cia. Cia. Oh, you taught me a trick and I forgot it. Go.
(01:14:47):You taught me a trick. Trick. Okay, go, go, say it again. Gha. Gha. Uh, here we see, you know, the fullness of this verse. And it starts with submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. And then you see the unfolding of it. And there really is a place for submission and for love and sacrifice. These things are all very real. And if both happen, this works in a relationship. And there really is order and responsibility and these things in hierarchy described, not because uh, one is better than the other, or to lord it over them or anything else, but because God’s got of order and he created Adam and said, Nope, , it is not good for man to be alone. He took Eve out of the rib of man, everything has a purpose. So he created Adam out of the dust, and then he created Eve out Adam.
(01:15:52):And then sin went, went back to from Eve, had to have sin because of Adam. Adam cursed the whole earth with his, his, uh, his sin. So I don’t know if I used the right words there, cuz I get excited and use the wrong words. Hopefully that made sense. All of it makes sense. God has an order and he holds responsibility because of that. And, and then in the midst of it, in the context of it, love is the bigger aspect of it. And you see that in Corinth Corinthians. You know that we are to live at peace with each other and love. And, um, and he has these themes that we’ll find out. So if you actually follow scripture, which is rare, it would all work very nicely. More commonly, people grab one piece of it and go too far.
(01:16:47):Children and I, I I talked about the example of fathers. Do not exacerbate your children. Instead bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. Kind of tangible scriptures that we can use with families. Oh, see, uh, it’s been a while since I’ve looked at my slides, but I knew, I knew, I’m sorry I went for it. Uh, but I’ve got some of the things that I, that are most important to me, speak the truth and love. And that one also comes with we are no longer infants tossed back and forth by the waves. And blown here and there by every window of teaching. And by the cunning and craftiness of people in a deceits scheming and said, speaking the truth and love, we will grow to become in respect the mature body of him who is the head that is Christ. And therefore being justified by faith.
(01:17:35):We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom also we have access to faith into His grace wherein we stand. We’re just standing in a whole bunch of grace and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but with glory and tribulations. Here’s our verse. Grab it. Have it be ready to use it. Uh, we glory and tribulations because knowing that tribulation work with patience, patience, experience and experience hope, hope make us not ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, which is given unto us. Proverbs a fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds back. I have definitely used that. Put that on a whiteboard. And it’s deep, you know, it hits the core of people and they will respond. Listen to advice and accept instruction that you may gain wisdom in the future.
(01:18:39):Whoever slow to anger has great understanding, but he who is haste has a hasty temper exalts folly. Uh, funny enough, I had a gentleman, a young person again, Dr. McCready will remember him quite well, uh, very young. He was an adult, but I think he was 18, I don’t even think he was 19, very young, uh, and angry, you know, had a, a terrible temper. And he is in treatment. And we were reading proverbs every morning and I just laugh because there’s so many proverbs that talk about this, you know, that talk about don’t explode, don’t just say anything you want to hold back. And so, you know, whether he liked it or not, there he was confronted, you know, all the time, uh, uh, to have, uh, a different way of handling his anger. Um, so these are, these could be used easily and often. Okay, I’m gonna stop there and just, um, give time before we jump to, uh, the next section. Uh, just using verses specific to topics in scripture. And again, if you know how to properly do it, and typically with believers, or at least you do it more like a proverb, listen to this phrase, what do you think of it? Not here’s the Bible you need, uh, hear it, you know, but you can absolutely introduce the idea, uh, at times. Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 6 (01:20:08):It’s fascinating to know that, um, as different as each of us is, uh, temperament wise, personality wise, and experience wise, trauma wise, this all pertains to us the same. Right? All, all of those, uh, it’s fascinating because it’s just one shape that fits all. Um, that’s, that’s what I’m amazed by. But, um, I was wondering, um, maybe not wondering, it’s just, uh, how big of a transformation can one expect from, you know, applying God’s wisdom? Cuz I’m thinking like God gives us abilities, you know, in us. And, um, I’m thinking that sometimes there’s a limit to to transformation. Um, and it’s, it’s, it’s really hard to, you know, to, um, uh, to uh, go over that, uh, that line where, you know, from somebody who’s, you know, uh, intelligence is 50 to like 180, you know, uh, suddenly, um, mm-hmm. , how, do you have any comment on that? I mean,
Speaker 2 (01:21:07):Sure. Question. I love the question. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, absolutely. So there, it’s probably question that could be answered many ways, but I’ll give you a few thoughts that I think to me are very special and important. Uh, unlimited is one answer, , you know, I have definitely seen changes in transformation that make no sense. So, so I do not believe there’s a limit to how God could transform. Uh, I have definitely seen, uh, God works with humans in the physical realm. Even when he was creating, he didn’t need time. He didn’t need to take a break on, on the seventh day to rest. He models for us. So he, he works in time with us and he works with our physical limitations. And he even models like getting baptized. And when he created, he went about it methodically. He named the animals and then told Adam to name the animals.
(01:22:16):He didn’t have to, he could just like snap his fingers. He doesn’t even have to do that, of course. So a lot of things in scripture he does as a model for us. And I think that fits what you’re saying too about these verses. We could apply ’em. That’s how the Bible works. It’s so deep and it keeps going. Everything that we are learning, we could teach everything that we need to change our life. We have other people learn and it changes their life, you know, and on and on it goes. So there’s a complexity and a deepness to, to this. Uh, but also, uh, I see how he works in our physical realm. So I believe God, for example, could take somebody from an IQ of 50 to 180 if you wanted to. I don’t see it often. And I think that’s because he chose to create this world.
(01:23:10):He chose to create humans for whatever reason, he gave us a choice, you know, and we blew it. And sin entered the world, and then he rescued us and Christ came, God entered his creation to fix it. And now we have a new opportunity to be in relationship with him. So why did he do this? I don’t know. I’m so excited to ask him. But he works with us in our limitations in time and our physical body. You know, we could fly if God wanted to us, but I don’t see anybody flying because he created gravity. He created what we have here on earth. So I watch him, uh, work within what he has created for his purpose. So some of the answers, I, I couldn’t give you a why. It’s just what I have watched him do and that fits scripture. So what I have seen though are people that would have appeared to be so broken that there is no hope fully restored to physical health and their relationship healed in such a way that would to anyone seem like a miracle, like that, that, that, that this, how did this happen?
(01:24:31):And, and he uses people to do it. He could just heal. He’s perfectly capable. He lets us get to come alongside and be used by him. So I love emdr. I can watch it heal trauma in a uniquely powerful way better than a lot of other techniques. And I believe it’s how the brain works naturally. The brain that God created. And it’s popular right now when, when it could have been forever. And, and right now we’re in a timeframe where we’re, we’re using it and it’s healing in a unique way biologically, where sometimes we would say if somebody’s a psychopath or child molester or, you know, various things, we would say no hope. You know, there’s just no hope. Uh, we don’t see evidence in any, uh, technique working to heal these people. No hope. And I believe there’s hope. I believe some of the techniques bring healing biologically in a certain way.
(01:25:33):If you heal trauma, you heal a lot of what is are the disorders that we recognize. And I believe, of course, God could do whatever he wants. So I deal with both, because I don’t always have a chance to work both believers. I don’t think that its fixing them. Uh, sometimes it heals a piece of their brain. I still know that they have eternity, that they’ve got a face. But I don’t mind if it’s a bandaid. I don’t mind if I can, if they’re hungry, I feed them. I am honored to do that. If they have P T S D and I can get them to the point where they stop having nightmares, I am honored to do that. So I don’t see so much separation of God can heal and he uses us to heal. I see a blending of all this. Of course, God could do whatever he wants and he could at any moment. And he uses us for whatever reason. And he uses cognitive behavior, therapy and medication. And he uses it all because it’s his creation, whether it’s people or, or truly something he put into creation from the beginning of time. It, it’s, it’s, I still give him credit, uh, but I will say the big picture of things, nothing beats him. Like when he decides to transform alive, you know, nothing’s gonna compare to that. So obviously broad and complex, but that gives you my answer to that question.
Speaker 6 (01:27:05):Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:27:09):Okay. Uh, this is new. I’ve been working on this. We’ve got videos and writing and all kinds of stuff that will come to you eventually because it’s, some of it’s, it’s clear in our minds, but formulating it is, uh, to, to just package it for people. It has been, you know, our life’s mission and, and it’s a work in progress. Uh, but this is like a picture of what we were doing at Genesis Recovery, uh, with some of our training and curriculum. And so we had a 60, uh, 60 sessions class with lots of topics, but I’m summing it all up. And it came from Genesis, a creation model. So if you look at all of it and you kind of just sum it up, we saw themes. And one big theme was work and relationships. And you can see that in people’s problems and in healing, right?
(01:28:02):So, so they have problems in their work environment, problems in their relationship, and some of the other subtopics are, are right there. But I, what I did on this is just kind of put ’em in two sections. Uh, not really that they belong there, but I was just messing with how I wanted to present it. So I put vision management, leadership and perspective on the work side, and I put communication, boundaries, conflict and attitude. On the relationship side, you could say, you know, there’s a mixture there on either side. But if you look at Genesis, both in the creation story, in the curses given to man and woman, uh, and how God modeled things for Adam and for humans, you see these themes. And so we used a curriculum that had these and, and more that are under this. And we had such a high success rate of the guys staying in the program, completing the program, and to this day staying in recovery different than anything I’ve seen.
(01:29:07):And I think it resonated deep at their core level. What’s your vision for your future? What do you see yourself in? And of course we’re connecting in hopefully to their faith. Uh, the idea that they were created, they’re created to be a leader, a leader of their life, a leader of their family, a leader in their community that resonated with people. And that so much is perspective and the right perspective and truth communication. And partly because skills for communication, skills to set and hold boundaries, skills for conflict are gonna be important to have relationships. And relationships are healing. And then attitude, big picture, uh, every day, you know, no matter what’s happening in your life, life, and this is all applied to each of us. If you’re a therapist, I don’t care if the whole world’s falling apart, how you present yourself when you walk in the door, your attitude you bring into the room goes a long way for yourself and for everybody else around you.
(01:30:15):And this is difficult. It does not come easy, but I, I watched it just have its own transformation when people had the light bulb and they were understanding this and they were applying it to every day. So there’s a lot more that I could share on this, but for time’s sake, I won’t. Uh, but this was, uh, one of our ways of taking scripture and applying it in a clinical setting in a curriculum. And I would start with Genesis and, and I would use it because it was a faith-based program. I could, you know, but I would use it to say, okay, I wanna describe a little bit and I’d go through what we do. You’ve heard us say it multiple times and we’ll say it a lot again. First you’re created perfect, and then the fall, and here’s the consequence. And as I did that, I’d do a timeline and, and I would do a timeline of God pursuing humans.
(01:31:07):Cuz we, we kept failing, right? You have, uh, you have the flood, you have Tara babble, then you have Israel multiple times, and then you have crucifying Christ. You know, you have all these times where God’s pursuing humans and then, uh, we reject him and he keeps coming back for us, you know? So I put it on a timeline. And so when I get to Christ, I say Christ entered his creation to have a relationship with us. Their response is, it makes sense now in their brain. Like, why does it matter to some guy came and died and rose in the dead, but in context it makes sense. And I watch people, if they didn’t get saved, they, they knew what it meant to have a relationship with God. And some light bulb came on in a, in a powerful way. So there’s ways, even in secular settings where some of this can come in, uh, and it, it truly leads to a different type of transformation, I believe in a very practical sense.
(01:32:07):So any comments or questions on this? Again, we spent a year on this. This is just a tiny piece of what we developed that eventually, hopefully you’ll have available to you the whole curriculum. Uh, but any thoughts or comments of kind of us taking scripture and applying it to a treatment center center, but life principles in general. I just really love what you’re doing. I think it’s really exciting. So I just, yeah, I really appreciate the way you’re applying this in and the principles and how nothing returns. His word never returns empty. So I was thinking a lot about that. Like it’ll always have an impact. So, no, it’s cool. I look forward to learning more about it. Yeah, yeah, it, it’s a seed , you know, who knows in 10 years, 15 years and, and I’ve seen it. So that’s the fun part, you know, being a therapist for a long time, it’s gonna be hard at the beginning.
(01:32:58):So my stories, I say, because you’re gonna have to hold onto ’em cuz you might not see it right away. But, um, we had a gentleman, I remember him vividly. So the, the, when we were up at Genesis the last time, that was his third stay there. But the times before, you know, he just connected. I, I just thought the world of him, you know, something about him, it just, he got to me, you know, I just thought so highly of him and he is an addict and he, he just didn’t make it, you know, I kept relapsing, but he did love it when I was talking about Rhombus, you know, maybe, uh, four or five years ago, you know, it clicked. He just loved it. And he did do well for a while, and then he relapsed. Uh, but he remembered it. So when he came back, he, it was the third time he came back, it was the first, it was our first client when we took over Genesis recovery, uh, men’s residential treatment facility.
(01:33:53):Uh, they, they were gonna close. And so we asked if we could take it back over. I had been there as a clinical director previously. Uh, so when we took it back over, we had zero clients. So he was the first one back and he was in a corner, you know, being miserable for a while. It’s still so kind. I’ll never forget that. As he’s curled up in a corner, he’s still so kind. Um, but eventually he comes out and, and he is getting clean and sober and, and he starts doing the groups. And, um, and he remembered and he’d always go rambus model and he’d throw, throw words out of from Rambus when he learned it years ago. Uh, he just loved it. And, and he talks about it often. And, um, uh, he, that was the third time, you know, he had come through something about that time clicked and he’s doing well to this day, and he brings some of this to others.
(01:34:48):He’s working in the a treatment facility now. So you don’t know, you know, even when a person goes in a that, that you’re like bummed out about, oh, why’d you do that? You don’t know when they’re gonna get it and come back and, uh, and have all that you taught them deep inside ready to grow. You planted the seed, we can water it, but we cannot bring the harvest that is literally God’s job. And he told us that. Uh, so we sometimes get the opportunity to watch how a life’s transformed. Uh, I hope everyone gets that opportunity. We may not always see it, it may happen without us watching it, you know, five years from now. Uh, but, but I have, I have seen it. I believe you will see it, you know, where you get to see, wow, that life is changed and it, it keeps you encouraged for, you know, the next years to come.
(01:35:47):Okay? So big picture, biblical application to psychology and counseling. It’s complex, it’s multifaceted. It’s worth the research, the effort and the path. You know, we have developed something. Let’s see, what if I have it on a slide. Um, this idea of applied biblical psychology where you know, your scripture and it comes to life in an application that, uh, understanding what the Bible says about humans becomes your psychology a as a model and how you view people and then what you do in therapy. And we believe that fits using everything else. You know, we know if you’ve done this, if you studied already, you know, something doesn’t fit scripture. And if it does, and you can have a philosophy or, or a theory like humanistic psychology that at its core is counter to scripture and you can still steal all the tools that work so well.
(01:36:52):So there’s gonna be some great value out of a lot of the tools that are effective that you can use, even if you don’t, uh, ahold to all of the principles out of a particular theory. So apply biblical psychology is just this concept that you start with scripture and then it comes alive into a psychology, and the result of it is gonna be everything we just went over. And so it’s a little bit of what you make of it too. We will have ours that we’re trying to develop and share and teach, but we’re still in process. So you take that on with us and together as believers, I I do, we can have a model that comes straight from scripture that can be applied just like any other, uh, that I believe will be more effective. So I have not seen an end product that I thought, that’s it.
(01:37:42):So I’m building it, and you can help me , but there are good models out there and there are plenty of people that are doing something similar. But for us, we want, we want something, we see something, and we’re trying to build it. We have some written, we have some, uh, composed, but it’s still in process. So if, for you, if you were gonna venture out with us on this road, and we want you to, because you, if you have a faith, then that you are, you know, you’re going to be a therapist with this as who you are, then be good at it. So how to do that one is have a relationship with God, you know, is this real and personal to you? Study your Bible, and if you’re not good at it or you don’t know where to start, find a way.
(01:38:34):You know, so know your Bible well develop a path for navigating some of the ethical dilemmas, some of the difficult situations. Or, uh, maybe if, if you’re all by yourself, maybe you would go too far. I, I remember a lady that was, uh, witnessing to a fellow student because, you know, not everybody has to come from the same faith, even though we’re all here studying and we’re learning. So in this class, uh, somebody that she, she may have been wrong, but she believed this person needed the gospel, and she believed that if she didn’t give the gospel to this person today, then that person’s soul was held on her shoulders. She was accountable for that. So even though the person did not wanna hear it, she was gonna give it. And she felt responsible to do that. Well, biblically, I believe the Holy Spirit is the one that holds that responsibility.
(01:39:29):Like he convicts the world, he will present himself to people, and they could have a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit. Of course, we have times that we share the gospel, but in that moment, I, if I was the only one, and the only time I, I don’t hold that view, I believe God can definitely use people and doesn’t even need people. So, so she put too much weight on herself inappropriately pushing an agenda right then. So you want to develop an ethical, uh, wise path for navigating some of this, and we will teach you some of that. But you’re in process, you’re still gonna gather from others to make this happen. Be patient and that lady was not patient. Build relationships, plant the seeds. You’re on a long road with people. They may not care what you have to say about the Bible right now. That’s okay. Be on the road with him and be patient and protect your relationship with God. What are you doing to be healthy and in a good relationship with God so that you can do all that he has prepared for you? These are some things that I believe are very important if you are going to be applying scripture to the field in an ethical way.
(01:40:52):Uh, very good, Heidi, I appreciate you saying that. So there is some concepts, and this is, we, we have a class we do on, and and you have done it. Some of you have done it on law and ethics. There’s an ethical decision making process. And that’s important because yeah, you are going, if you’re getting licensed, you are voluntarily putting yourself under a licensing board that has authority over some of what you do. And you’re saying, yes, it’s okay. I, I will follow it. And sometimes you might not , but, but you’re voluntarily putting yourself in that position. And, and you’ve heard us talk about our three principles, customer service, professionalism, and feedback loop. Well, professionalism is important. It protects you as a Christian in the field. If you’re licensed, there are rules and, and laws that regulate the profession. If you don’t want to follow them, then this is probably not the field.
(01:41:53):And I have many people that get their degree and, and they’re creative and their coaches and pastors and other things just because they just don’t want to be under it. I love being under it because I want to, to navigate it, even if it’s difficult to navigate, to not have a, a barrier in front of me. I wanna be able to do anything professionally that I can in front of me without that barrier. So I did wanna be licensed, and I hope all of you pursue licensure, but if you do, you take on a responsibility. If somebody is paying you money, money, and they have depression and they want to, to have the depression decrease, they have anxiety and they want their anxiety to decrease. If they’re having relationship problems and they want a healthier relationship, they want to improve communication, help them improve their communication, that is your ethical responsibility.
(01:42:47):Now, there are times you have opportunity, and hopefully in the moment you’ll make a wise choice as to whether you take an opportunity to do anything else, but you, you are entering into a profession that someone will pay you money to get help. And, and just like you wouldn’t give a hungry person a rock and say, God bless you, you know, you, your job is to feed them. If they’re hungry, your job is to get ’em a coat. If they’re cold, you will have opportunity and you can take it to introduce Christ. But in the grand scheme of things in your profession, you want to first help them with what they need help with. That’s gotta be your goal in an ethical and professional manner. And I’ve done this for a nearly 20 years now, and I’ve had times where I’ve given the gospel of people I’ve gotten saved and I have a strategic way I do it to be ethical.
(01:43:46):And still somebody would be mad at me if they knew and I’ve done it. Uh, and, and it can be done. It’s just, you don’t go out thinking that, that you’re gonna save everyone or bring scripture in or that’s gotta be a priority. You want to address what people are seeking therapy for. And anytime I’ve done it, it’s been them asking me my personal story. And that’s, that’s been the result. And I, I don’t even, just because I wanna be careful and ethical, I, I wouldn’t judge a person for what they choose to do as long as they’re willing to take responsibility. But for me, I wouldn’t even pray with a person, uh, for salvation. Even if they wanted to. I will say, this is a very personal decision between you and God, and I want you to go talk to God or find a person you trust that has a relationship with God and I want you to go talk to them.
(01:44:42):And I will put that there because even though I could pray, uh, I want to keep that ethics, I want to be above board. And so I might even share my personal story or what, uh, what the Bible says about something and that may lead a person to really wanting that personal relationship with God. And then I’ll direct him to the next step rather than do it. And there’s debate on that. There’s plenty of people that would wanna take opportunity right then. And I will leave that up to you as long as you do your due diligence on how you’re gonna come up with the answer to that question. I would never do it flippantly. I would have a careful process that you go about deciding ahead of time, how are you navigating yourself as a professional in a field that has laws and ethics that you’re agreeing to abide by.
(01:45:38):All right, six minutes to spare . I was getting excited guys. It’s too much good stuff. I keep going. Uh, but we could still take a little bit of time for questions, but this was meant to be brought. I want you to picture what does it look like to be a Christian or use scripture or, or bible or the philosophy of, of a, of a biblical worldview in counseling. And there’s a lot of ways to approach it. So it’s just, just a broad overview so you have a place for it. As you decide for yourself what this is gonna look like as a professional.
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8050 La Mesa Blvd., La Mesa, CA 91942
Hours of Operation: 24/7 by phone
In-person: Monday-Saturday 2pm-5pm