Common Ground | The New Marijuana by Dr. Julie Hayden

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Dr. Julie Hayden:
All right. So I’m not promising I can answer every single question. But hopefully, you won’t trap me, at least. We’ll see. So she introduced me. And one thing I love is talking about addictions, because I usually am working with people way over here where it’s really devastated their life. And then we kind of go back and have to heal so they get their life back. So if I can talk to people before that’s happened and catch things before they get too far, it’s really helpful.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So before we get into it, I want to have like two sides to this room where we’re going to see a spectrum. If you thought of like, wow, that’s a hard drug. That drug will just destroy your life. It’ll kill you. That’s terrible. What’s on that side. We’re going to say this side. No offense on this side of the room, just that wall over there. What are those drugs? Just list them out. What are the terrible drugs like, wow, you’re going to really get yourself into trouble? What’s over there? Meth. Heroin. What else? Crack. Somebody say PCP? All right, acid. Come on now. We got some good ones. I mean like, where you could really have issues. There could be some problems.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Okay. Now, nah, it’s not that big of a deal. We’ll just include all so we get some [inaudible 00:01:21] what we might put there. You could count other things that people don’t count, mind altering substances. Nah. It’s not that bad. Okay. What’s over there? What do we got? Alcohol? What else? Caffeine, tobacco. What else? What was that? Somebody said something over here. You got to scream it. You’re all with your mask, Tylenol. Okay. Yeah, sure. Don’t go crazy on the Benadryl. All Right. You’ll be sleeping for days.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Where are we putting marijuana here, guys? Where are we putting weed? Are we sticking it on the meh, or the better watch out? Where do we go? I don’t know. Left. It’s confusing right now. So which wall? Okay. All right. It’s like, meh. So that’s where we start. That’s where most people start. Honestly, like she said, I’ve been working with addictions for a lot of years. And even working with addictions, it might be a gateway drug. Ah. But you’re not as worried necessarily about weed as some other things. And you might even catch yourself saying, “Well, it’s just weed.” So this is where we come from. But along the way, things have changed and nobody is necessarily caught in the loop of this because it’s better if you don’t know, from a marketing standpoint.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So let’s get into it and see where we go. Okay, guys? Here we go. See if my clicker works or not. So as many years ago as 5,000 years, you could even say longer, depending on what you’re looking in research, people have used marijuana from the marijuana plant in many ways, mostly medicinal, sometimes recreational. So you can come grab the PowerPoint from somebody that has it at the back if you want to click. Keep going. We’re just going to walk it up a little bit to see. Over the years it’s been used for many different reasons. Click. The FDA started regulating it at some point around early 1900s and into it. But it might be used still for medication for pain and other areas. By 1914 and 1925, you have states starting to have some kind of regulation, laws prohibiting it. By the great depression, pretty much every state has some kind of regulation.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
And then you have this over on the left hand side, your right, you have this movie that comes out and it’s like reefer. And it’s got somebody who has that psychosis, aggression, killing people. It’s portraying it as some kind of crazy drug, scaring everybody. And that is, I want to get the timeframes, this will be important, 1936. Then by 1937, you’ve got a tax. Click. Here’s a couple important dates. You’ve got the counterculture, which you might picture in your mind of everybody just getting high, love, peace. It’s all good. And then 1980s, you have, Just Say No, DARE, this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs. You have all these warnings to kids to scare them away from drugs. That’s 1980s. Keep that date in your brain. You’ve got legalized marijuana for medicinal use. 2012, first state’s legalized marijuana for recreational use. Remember that. As we go on. Now, we have 11 states, including California. It’s no big deal. Recreational. It’s legal. Then you have 33 that it’s still legal for medicinal use. Let’s keep going. But remember 1980s and 2012. We’re coming back.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So first I want you to just like scream out what are the positives of marijuana? Why do people smoke weed? What are some of the benefits people get? Just list them out for your own sake, if nothing else. You could sleep. Painkillers. To get high. Huh? Appetite. Seizures. Very good. I know what question you’re asking later. Okay, yeah. So people enjoy it. It relaxes them possibly. There’s some effects to it. Click.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So you might have sleepiness. You might have red eyes. Going over onto the other side. You might have a slow reaction time, change in personality. You might have a change in sense of time. You might picture somebody playing video games all day long, eating tricks. You might have munchies. These are kinds of the things we might think of with something and somebody’s smoking weed. So you might also have anxiety and paranoia. This previously would be in certain cases. Some people would experience hallucinations, paranoia and anxiety. Click.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So the question has always been, is it addictive? I want to take a moment just to talk about what that even means. So if something’s addictive, there’s a couple ways you’ll know. And what we’re usually talking about is how it works in your body. So if you wonder if something’s addictive, if you have that question. It’s real easy. Stop using it and see what happens. If you tell yourself, okay, fine, I’m just going to stop using it. And then you find yourself telling yourself why you’re going to stop tomorrow. It might be like a little red flag. But what happens in your body when something’s addictive? One thing is it deals with dopamine, which is a chemical in your brain that’s released naturally when you really like something. So something’s enjoyable. You get this flood of dopamine. The message of that chemical is, hmm, yum. Do it again. So if something produces dopamine and your brain goes, hmm, yum. Do it again. Then that could be addictive because it’s your natural chemicals in your brain that are going to want you to keep doing it. It’s a powerful chemical that could lead to addiction.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
How fast something works and how well something works also tells you something’s going to be addictive. So the point of addiction, why that could be negative is, if somebody’s addictive, they’ll keep using it even if their whole life’s destroyed. It won’t matter. Even if there are all kinds of negative consequences all over the place, they’ll keep using it. That’s the power of addiction. So that’s where it would become a problem. Versus just using something casually. You make you feel good. Maybe sometimes you don’t. But if you don’t like it, you just stop it. No big deal.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
If that gets a hold, where it is addictive, then you’re going to have withdrawals. Your body’s going to hate you when you stop using it. You’re going to have physical symptoms that you don’t like if you stop using it. And you’re also going to have dependence, which means your body’s going to get used to it and need a little bit more, and a little bit more, and you’re going to have to keep upping the ante to get the feeling that you want. So that’s how addiction works. If you have to depend on it, physically, you keep wanting to get that high that you’re looking for, and you keep using more and more, then yeah, you might get addicted and it’s going to be hard to just stop even if you start finding some negative consequences. So all along it has been addictive, not to everyone. But to some people, it could easily be addictive. So let’s keep going. Click.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
This is an interesting area. When we’re looking at various drugs, we’re kind of putting them into categories. So you’ve got some that you’ll recognize. Opiates. These are painkillers. They’re from opium. What would be in this category? What are some opiates? Anybody have any idea? Heroin, most common one you might think of. What else? Oxys, morphine. Good. So this is opium. Make you feel good. It’s a very high euphoria. Interesting thing in the brain. Some of these, they bond to something, like a part of your brain or your body. They have receptors. Bonds to something that’s already there and works. Heroin creates new receptors nothing else is going to fill. So it’s a very high euphoria, very addictive.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Depressants, sedatives calming you down, relaxing you, slowing your central nervous system down. What will be examples of that? Adderall is not a sedative. Adderall is a stimulant. So we’ll come back there. If it calms you down, then you probably have what they always say ADHD brain. So it’s an underactive brain. So a stimulant wakes it up and you feel calmer, works opposite. Interesting fact, you’ll probably have opposite effect of marijuana than what you would expect as well. So sedatives, calming you down. Yes. Alcohol, hydrocodone. Huh? Scream it. Xanax. Benzodiazepine. So benzos are anti-anxiety medication. They work fast. They work well. So what are they? Addictive. Now, if you’re using things properly, doesn’t mean you’ll be addicted. But they are addictive. Very addictive. Xanax in particular. So these are examples of depressants.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Stimulants wake you up. They wake your body up. They wake your energy up. You’re not going to sleep. They give you a euphoria. You might have psychosis, hallucinations. What are we talking about? What was that? Caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant. You’re probably not going to get hallucinations, hopefully. But you guys don’t know me yet. So we don’t count caffeine, okay. It’s not. It doesn’t count. So what else? Cocaine. Meth. Yeah, stimulants. These will produce this euphoria and awakeness.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Psychedelics, where you’re tripping and you have hallucinations and distortions and you’re seeing blue things. What are we talking about? LSD. Okay. Coyote. Mushrooms. All right. So you got these things, right? All right. Where do we put marijuana? Good answer. That’s like the best answer. Usually in church, your answer is Jesus. But when you have a talk like this, to me, the answer is, it depends. So good answer. I like it. Actually, marijuana kind of fits, sometimes it’s a depressant, it calms people down, your central nervous system. Sometimes it’s a stimulant, it wakes you up and gives you energy. And sometimes it’s a psychedelic. So it actually fits three categories. So just interesting. And that’ll come into play on how it affects people. Click.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So here are some more, oh, did we go the other direction? Keep going. So let’s do history. Remember 1980s was DARE. This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Warning, warning. Back in that day. And this is at 1980s, before you’re talking 2% THC. In the use of marijuana, THC is what produces the high. It produces the effect people like so much. So potency level in 1980s was 3% THC. Click. 2012, by the time it was legalized in Colorado, 12% THC. Now, statistically, as far as the potency, that’s a pretty high increase. Click. 20% by 2018, with high grade marijuana. Click. Now, smoking marijuana, you could easily get 20, I’m coming for you, 20% to 40% THC level. Click. With oils, concentrate. I’m going to, that’s why I have no shoes. And also because she dared me. Oil concentrates, which ends up in edibles and things like that could be sometimes even higher, but pretty easily 96% THC.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Now 2012 was when you saw the big increase. What was 2012? Colorado legalized. For whatever you think of the reasoning behind it, it became a product to make as best as possible for you. But what it did is it changed it dramatically. Due to time, I’m going to keep going. Save your question. It’s a good one, and I want to get to some good stuff real quick. Keep going because I want to get to the main point before I run out of time. It’s not the same drug. Click.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So here’s some current risk now because of the potency levels, because of how this drug changed. I’m going to jump to some of the ones that I want you to really understand. In working with addictions, I’ve got meth, I’ve got heroin, used to be like heroin. Somebody just ran through all the drugs they could. They finally got to heroin basically ready to die. Now, I’ve got 13 year olds using heroin. It’s crazy out there. But the point is, it used to be you weren’t having people come for treatment because they’re smoking weed. That was uncommon. What we have now in treatment facilities all over the United States are people that have had psychotic breaks for marijuana, aggression and psychosis like they’re on meth, but it’s just weed, marijuana or oils. And they have a psychotic break and their brain never comes back. That’s different. Meth, you would have psychosis. And it may take a long time. But given enough time, you start to clear. Your brain comes back. You get more grounded in reality. Unless you have long term meth use, your brain’s probably going to come back.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
But what we’ve found is it hasn’t happened with the psychotic breaks very specifically in a more high risk population, young guys. So 18, 21 year olds. One of the reasons I was excited to be asked to speak to this group, whether it’s you or other people you know, you’re not going to know if you’re in the risk category. But what we have had, and actually emergency rooms are a place that you see this very often that we have tangible evidence for. Everything else is people talking like, “Oh my gosh, you see this guy’s here for weed. What happened?” So it’s a whole different drug. And what you’re seeing is a different reaction to the body and the consequences of it. I’ve got guys that have used heroin forever saying, I need some Xanax with that weed. The weed is too potent for them. It’s a different drug with a different level of risk factor than has ever been.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So you’ve got some lists up here. But the psychosis is what trips our brains up. When we’re in treatment we’re just like, I can’t believe this. This is crazy. And we get another one and another one. They go home with their parents. Their parents have not made a big deal out of it. It’s just weed. They’re growing it in their backyard. And now they’ve lost their kid because whatever the timeframe, their brain hasn’t come back, they’re still out of touch with reality. They’re not there. So this is a big deal where I think it’s exciting that we know some of this information to get out because we’re dealing with the opiate epidemic. People are dying everywhere with heroin, fentanyl. It’s a big deal. But we’re over here, like, everybody knows this is terrible. And we’re dealing with a big issue.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
I think people minimize the effects that marijuana can have. They have no idea. And I don’t know how you would know unless you showed up here. Nobody else is going to tell you this stuff. But I deal with it every day. There is research coming out on it, but I have no idea how long it’s going to take for research to get to the average population. So I’m excited to be here. There’s plenty more I could talk. But I want to open it up for questions. Go ahead and click Because I don’t know what I’m skipping. Stats. Go ahead and click. Get your questions ready. Go ahead and leave that there. These are other risk factors to know if you fall in some of the high risk factors for the psychosis part. Give me some questions, guys. What was yours over here? Do you remember? Did I answer it? All right. Good. Yes. Why is anything a risk factor? Who knows?

Speaker 2:
No. Why is unmarried a risk?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So I would have to answer this broadly because I have no idea. When you see risk factors in life, like those that don’t have a dad or they’re early when they start using marijuana. Some of that has to do with brain development. I’m guessing with unmarried, anything in life, if you have lack of a support system, it changes. You have a higher risk. So if you had a huge family around you and you went through something crazy, you might be better off than if you’re alone and went through something crazy. So I imagine it has something to do with that. But I’m not sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
I want to ask, can you define psychosis?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Sure. So psychosis is, you’re seeing things that are not there. You’re hearing things that are not there. You feel things that are not there. You believe things 100% that is not real. Thank you, because I wouldn’t have thought of that. I love psychosis, talking about it. So like, duh. So I’m glad we emphasize that. But especially with meth, there are common patterns where they feel like things are crawling on them. And so they’re trying to get them. So you see scratches and holes. And you might see that they’re talking to somebody on the street, there’s nobody there. Or they believe things. The government’s out to get them. They’re paranoid. Which those things can go together. So the belief system is a delusion, paranoid is, somebody’s going to get me. Somebody’s going to get me. Somebody’s going to get me. Is he looking at me? Is that guy going to get me?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
And if you have experienced any of these drugs, you may know what I’m talking about. But psychosis is, you are detached from what’s really there. You are in another world. I’m talking to you, but you are not there. Only time I’ve ever been harmed by a client, he was in psychosis. He pushed me, but it wasn’t me he was pushing, he was pushing whoever he was seeing and hearing, but it was not me. So you’re outside of reality. You’re in another world, and we’re trying to get you back to reality so you know what’s going on around you.

Speaker 2:
I’m going to ask one more. But then if you guys have a question, raise your hand and I’ll bring the mic to you. You said, young men, especially, get to this through marijuana use pretty quickly. When someone’s in your office and they’re dealing with psychosis because of this, on average, how long have they smoked weed?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So that’s a little bit tricky to answer. In the cases that I could see. I could say something like a gut reaction answer of two or three years. But with risk factors, you don’t know how your body’s going to respond. And this is just truly marijuana. Oils, you just go out. I mean, that’s a high risk factor. I’ve seen that with one use by people. So it’s a different level of risk. But also, every body is different. So you don’t know how your body’s going to respond. As well as, depending on what you’re getting, you have no idea what’s in it.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So there’s been a lot of wild card situations where somebody dies. Somebody has a psychotic break when they were being careful, but they didn’t know what was in there. There’s something else that they couldn’t control. So there’s a lot of, you’re never going to guess. That’s why I put it out there as a risk factor so you know the risk is real. I’m not going to be able to guess who it will hit, who it won’t.

Speaker 2:
Just to clarify. People have died from marijuana use?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Usually, if they’re dying, there’s something else in it. So it’s laced with something. Something’s in it that they didn’t know about from wherever they purchased it from. Fentanyl would be the most common lace with it. And see, whoever’s giving it to them, they just want them to get a good high. So they’re putting something in there to make them love it, to come back and buy more. But if you’re not used to that, your body, it could be too much.

Speaker 3:
Yeah. So I was wondering, how does CBD fall into all this compared to like THC, because THC is more like a body high?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
There’s actually hundreds of chemicals in the marijuana plant. The two we always talk about are THC and CBD. THC, because it’s what gives us our high. And CBD, because there are medicinal properties that people use in medications for. CBD doesn’t usually have a high, so there’s a lot of benefits that can come from it that doesn’t give a person a high. It is a little debated because if you work in addiction, it’s amazing what people could be addicted to. I got like hand sanitizer coming out. People are getting creative. All by itself, there is nothing that should be addictive about that, but they already have in their body, brain and chemical and body, they have addiction. So if they can’t get what they normally get, they go for something else.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So in that case, if somebody’s already struggled with addiction, we want to keep them far away from CBD because that’s just how it is. They’ll use anything. There’s things on the market anybody could buy that we are going to say you better not. I was like, it’s not going to end well. But one thing to ask yourself is, why are you using something? If you are using something because you don’t like how you feel and you want to feel different, especially if you really don’t like how you feel and you want it to go away, if you want an escape, you want to push a button and just have a break. That’s setting you up for addiction. So if that’s the case, I will go find help for that. There’s probably other ways other than substances that could manage that. So sometimes that’s a key factor, is why?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So if people are having medical difficulties and they’re using CBD and they get medicinal properties, they’re not getting high. So that’s another thing. If you’re getting high somehow, something’s going on weird with the CBD. What’s happening here? I don’t know. Where are you getting it from? Who are you buying it from? What are they telling you? That’s another factor. Nothing’s regulated. So it’s hard to know what you’re getting. I’m sure that will improve with time. But right now it’s hard to know what you’re getting. Does that answer it a little bit? You can ask more if you’d like too. Think of a follow-up question. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
This is a bit two part question. First part is, when you go into psychosis, is it a natural process to get out or do you need drugs to get of it? And then if someone we know were to enter, can we almost deal with it or should we send them to someone more trained immediately?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Sure. So the first part of that question, you can use medication. You don’t have to, especially depending on when a person got high and how that psychosis is going too. If it’s the substance creating it, and they are in a place where they’re not using it, it should die down with time. Unless, like we’ve talked about, it’s not like one use of marijuana usually. It would be more than that if somebody’s really having a psychotic break. But again, you don’t know. But with that, just stop using the drug, probably everything will be fine. It’ll come down. You can get back into reality. That could happen. There are some medications that people take that take away the psychosis that treatment centers use. And so, it’s just to get them as clear as possible so that they can start working on an addiction. So if it’s a person with an addiction, then it’s more important that they come back to reality and they start getting some tools under their belt. So you could do either.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
The other one was, you could probably handle it. It just depends. If somebody’s psychotic and they’re laughing and talking to nothing in the corner, you might be able to wait that out. But some people are psychotic and they’re in the street naked. It’s like, all right, cops are getting called. So it just depends on what we’re talking about here. But with that, I would say, you can try to help somebody. I wouldn’t go too far. I was going to like give you some tools, basically connect them to their senses. I remember one guy, it wasn’t because of drugs. It was true psychosis. But he started going off to where he is believing a delusion and seeing things. And I said, “Wow, I like your shoes.” And he goes, “Yeah, I just got them.” And it pulled him out. So, sometimes bringing somebody to touch something, see something, feel something, engage their senses in reality today, that helps pull them out of a psychosis. So it’s a little trick you could use. But again, it depends on the level of psychosis, whether you’re trying to handle this or whether you get help involved.

Speaker 5:
So when everybody started making it legal, it tells us somebody smarter than me decided this is okay for me. So the younger people start using it. So I know 12 year olds that smoke pot. You skipped a slide you had on frontal lobe brain development. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Ah, good one. I don’t know how I skipped it. It must be because I’m not looking at my PowerPoint. Good point. This is why it’s such a risk factor for young people. So when you’re aged zero to six, every single thing you ever experience, it goes into hard wiring of your brain. And then the rest of your life is built off of that. So first six years, super important. The next really important years are basically from 6 to really about 22, before your whole brain’s fully developed. The last part comes your prefrontal cortex. Your prefrontal cortex is making good decisions, thinking things through, attaching consequences to actions. It’s exactly what we think of when we think of youth. Like, oh no, you look like an adult. But this is not fully developed yet. And so you think you’re invincible. You think everything’s going to be fine. There are things that happen because this part of your brain is not fully developed.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So if you introduce drugs into your system before this is fully developed, you could have issues in that area too. It will wire differently. You’ll have a different brain set up than other people into adult life. So that’s another different risk factor, but also why it’s so risky. 12 year olds, that is one of the highest risk for having psychosis from marijuana is starting that young. But besides that, I work in addiction. So I’ve got heroin, meth predominantly over here. And in all their stories, they have themes. They just didn’t wake up and be like, I just want to use meth. It was a story that took them there.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
And a lot of times you have whatever it started out, parents having a divorce. That’s just, working in addictions, one of the common starting points. Not because of the divorce, but because of what they believed about it. And then off you go. They go to school, they’re having a hard time. They’re labeled a bad kid. They’re dealing with all kinds of emotions they don’t know who to talk to about. And so, the first time they smoke weed and it takes away. They’re just like, I found it. This is it. Or they drink alcohol. Magic. I got a button I can push and this all goes away.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
But that’s all still there. It’s in their body. They absolutely remember it. It’s going to seep out everywhere in their life. Usually it’s a message they believed. It was my fault. Something’s wrong with me? I’m broken. Whatever it is, it’s like pushing them on in life. And here we go, they’re an adult and weed’s not enough. They need more to get those feelings from before to stay back. So you have this progression of people just going. And so that’s why they call it an entry drug because it is. It’s that first one you might have access to, but you need more, you need more. And then off you go into harder addictions. That is a common path. So that’s why I always ask, why? Why are you using this? Because you can’t deal with what you’re going through and you just want to push a button and make it go away. You’re starting down a road that could end really bad. It could be devastating.

Speaker 6:
I’m sure you get this question a lot, but what do you think about Portugal, which has completely decriminalized almost all drugs and has had death rates lower than like 50 times what the US has?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So in a general sense, we have lots of history with drugs and it goes like this. We found a miracle. All you need is just a little bit of this miracle drug. You stub your toe, you have a bad day, you got a headache, you have back surgery, miracle drug. It’ll be fantastic. Go for it. Little bit later, whoops, you’re going to die and we got to regulate it. We’ve done this with lots of drugs over the years. And in a general sense, I’d have to go look at Portugal specifically, but in all the research I’ve ever looked at.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Well, there’s two sides to that. There’s politics. So there’s the side of, I don’t know if legalizing or not legalizing is going to. There’s good points on both sides for whether it’s going to be addictive and push it. It would be hard for me to answer that because there’s so many political views around it. So as far as whether you legalize it or not legalize it, because there could be, for example, legalizing something takes some mystery out of it and less people are using it. So I don’t know. I’d have to look at the statistics. Is everybody smoking weed and it’s legal and everything’s great? I don’t know. That would be a hard one to ask without doing the research.

Speaker 7:
Sorry, I haven’t ever used drugs or anything, so I don’t know a whole lot about it. But I was wondering, is there ever a point in time where there’s no coming back from the addiction? For example, my uncle has been using for the last 40 years, maybe longer. Is he not saveable, I guess?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
I have hope. For many reasons, but I almost can’t have hope. I’ll just have to slap myself if I don’t have hope. Because it was like, duh, don’t you remember? So I’ve had guys that have gone through 40 or more years. They’ve gone through tons of treatments. They’ve been to prison, anywhere and everywhere, and they pull out and they live a good life. So I always have hope because I’ve seen it. First of all, God transforms people like I could never do. He gets ahold of somebody and just their whole life changes. And I just stand in awe.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
And there’s also times where people come through treatment, and for whatever the reason we call it rock bottom, they got nowhere else to go and something clicked and they’ll just do whatever it takes and they get there. So I’ve had many, many people. I was going to bring him but he couldn’t come tonight. I have a guy that has his own story that will come and share sometimes too. And he was far strung out in heroin and every other drug he can, and he’s a counselor. And he’s awesome. And his story helps a lot of people. So 40 years, I’ve seen many come out of it, for longer. And it’s a hard road, but they do it.

Speaker 2:
That question brought up an aspect of this. An aspect of why we invited you here today is because you work in this field of science, but you are a strong believer in Jesus Christ. And that hope question, there are aspects of both in that. So I wanted to ask you, in this field, as you are counseling and helping people who are dealing with psychosis, how does your faith play a role? And how do you apply what you’ve learned to how you live out your faith in Jesus Christ?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Very much, as a counselor, I feel like I have cutting edge secret weapons because I have God’s word that I believe is true, and it helps me view people different. For example, society says you deserve to be happy. I don’t believe that. So if you’re talking about drugs, everybody, I just want to be happy. Good luck with that one. Because I read in scripture, this world’s going to have tribulations, but be of good cheer, I’ve overcome this world. Or hold up under the trial and have joy. So I’ve got truth out of scripture that helps me see the world and see people differently and have hope for anybody. Because I know God thinks that person is extremely special. He probably has a whole plan for this person. If they could pull together right now, he is going to use them. And I get to say that to people.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
I work at a male residential facility right now that is faith based. So they bring me in. They love the psychology, but their passion’s faith. And so I get to share with them that. And so I bring it in all the time. And very specifically, I pray and ask the holy spirit to lead me when I’m talking to somebody. So I’ve got tools from psychology all over. There’s really fancy stuff lately I’ve been using that’s just awesome. But everything that works, I see how it’s built and how God created people. So it’s awesome. I don’t find it difficult to marry the two, they just fit naturally. But that’s one way.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
I’ll talk to people about God, if that’s important to them and bring that resource in. Otherwise it’s definitely in me. And I see God made people perfect and then sin entered the world and we are cursed. And so when I’m dealing with addictions and chemical imbalances in biology, that’s no big deal. Yeah, of course, because we’re getting worse. There’s going to be diseases. We’re going to grow old, we’ll get wrinkles. This is all part of what happened one day when the whole world’s cursed. Our bodies are cursed. We knew this was going to come. But there’s always hope. And so when I can come back and learn about the body, learn about the brain, I think that honors God. And so then I get more tools to better help people.

Speaker 8:
Do you have any words of advice, like, if we have friends that smoke marijuana and trying to have that difficult conversation with them, whether they’re Christians or not? What are words of advice that you would give? Like, I know I need to have a conversation with multiple friends. So what are some things I should touch on? I don’t know. Words of advice?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Sure. For one thing that came from me that I try to give to you guys is just awareness of the risk. It’s hard because right at the moment where people are most at risk, they don’t think it’s ever going to happen to them. And there is no research that shows warning people about the risk when they’re young is going to help. So it’s just like, blah, blah, warn, warn. I don’t care. But I’m still going to do it because the risk is really there. Maybe you don’t care now, but maybe in two years you care. Who knows? I’m just going to put it out there. So that’s one thing, is just maybe they never knew there was a risk factor.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
There’s also times you can basically, if you see a drastic shift, if you see an increase in use, you can check in with them like, “Hey, are you using this because you’re going through a hard time?” There’s usually a need. Are they lonely? Did they go through something hard? Are they feeling things they don’t know what to do with so they’re just checking out? Maybe they just need help in that way. You connect with them or get them with somebody else that could help. And just keeping that open communication to see what’s really going on. Some people use just because it’s fun in the moment. But a lot of times, they’re escaping something nobody even knows exists. So open communication like, “Hey, I’m here. We could talk about it. I’ll help you find somebody to help you.”

Speaker 9:
Yeah. A lot of people, their reaction when someone they care about starts using is to cut them out and hope they hit rock bottom, and then like come back. And I’m just guessing that’s not the best approach. But given that’s not, what is the right approach there?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
I do another presentation where one of the punchlines is, the opposite of addiction is not recovery, it’s connection. Because a lot of addiction comes from a lot of trauma, things in your background. And so, you have a different wiring in your brain that creates a risk for you to be addicted. And you can re-hardwire the brain. And the number one way is healthy relationships. Now that’s totally biblical, and science can’t make sense of that. But healthy relationships can actually really heal the brain from past. And so, what I do in that situation is, I love you. I care about you. I’m right here. I’m not giving you money. You can’t stay at my house. You have these boundaries.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Because here’s the number one thing. If somebody’s walking the road of addiction, this is really good for you to remember if you have family or friends. Never protect somebody from natural consequences. Nobody’s going to stop using unless the bad outweighs the good. They’re using for a reason. They like it. It’s fun. They feel good. So if there’s not some negative that’s worse, they’re never going to stop. So if you protect them, you bail them out of jail. You let them stay at your house. You give them some money. Whatever things that you are protecting them from life’s natural consequences, you’re just dragging it out.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So in that way, you put up hard boundaries. Like, nope. But you don’t have to say, “I’m never talking to you until you hit your rock bottom.” You could say, “I love you. I care about you. I’m right here. If you need to call me, call me. We’ll talk.” “Can I have money?” “No. I love you. How you doing? Call me later.” So you don’t have to end the relationship. You keep that connection, because that’s really important, but you hold the boundary. And that’s for their sake. Does that help?

Speaker 2:
Last call? We’ll take one more. All right. Last one.

Speaker 10:
I’ve never heard myself echo.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
It’s awkward.

Speaker 10:
It is. When parents put their kids on ADHD medication or when kids are depressed at a really young age and then they kind of grow out of it. Do you think they’re more prone to use drugs?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
Okay. So research would say that if somebody truly has ADHD, which is an underactive brain, so they need stimulants, whether they’re getting in trouble or using Adderall, to wake their brain up to feel calm. That if they get treatment at an early age, they won’t be likely to be in addictions. Anecdotally, for 17 years, I have seen something else. There’s also no research that I have found, quality research, that shows the long term effects of stimulant medication on the brain of a kid. Why? It’s a mystery. So I see red flags.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
And also, what I found is, what people call ADHD. Ah, we got ADHD. It’s like, first of all, that’s just a boy. Sometimes it’s like, that’s so normal. What are you talking about? But the other thing is, I’ve seen kids come out of trauma. They’re watching domestic violence. They’re scared for their life. I had one guy talking as a 40 year old man. “I had rings under my eyes,” he said, “dark rings under my eyes. My parents fought all the time. I was scared. Most of my life. I couldn’t do homework. I couldn’t concentrate. And I never slept. How come nobody noticed it?” But they did say he’s ADHD and he gets in trouble. And then he started fighting all through school, used drugs all through school. Now he’s 40 years old going, “How come nobody asked? Like, nobody wants to know what’s going on in my home.”

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So what I think we over-diagnose as ADHD could also be trauma. But there is such thing as an underactive prefrontal cortex, I call it entrepreneurial disease. So there’s some fantastic stuff that comes from what other people call ADHD. It’s just, you got to hone it for good because it can go sideways real fast. Like come on now, put it towards that.

Speaker 2:
All right. Last question for you. I mean, tonight for a college group, we had you speak on marijuana. And some people would say that’s not really a biblical subject. Let’s talk about all these other things. Why would you say it is?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
One thing I think that a believer can have in this world powerful is to be relevant. So I see what I do in mental health therapy in helping people, is something like the verse that talks about if somebody’s hungry, give them food. If they’re thirsty, give them water. If they’re cold, give them your coat. People are in pain probably right now in this room, a lot of you, and definitely people you know, are going through very difficult times. It’s not just about marijuana and the risk of marijuana. You want an escape because you’re living through something that’s very difficult. There’s hope and there’s help, and you don’t even know. Or the person you care about next to you doesn’t even know.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
So in that way, if I can be a believer, I will first give them some food because they’re hungry. And then I’m looking, can I introduce them to God? Can I introduce him? Now, I work in a faith-based setting. I can lead people to the Lord right there. That’s very unique. Usually, as a counselor, that’s not what you’re doing. But maybe I could say, “Hey, you ever thought about going to church?” What’s your faith?” Maybe I open the door for them to think about it. But as a believer, really, I want them to have a relationship with God. That’s what’s going to transform their life way beyond anything I can compare. Sometimes I get the opportunity to do that.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
For you guys, knowing this information, maybe first, you’re just helping them right now with what they need. But now they remember you. And when they’re in trouble, they come back to you. Maybe you have more opportunity to actually introduce them to Christ. And that would be a greater hope that none of the other things really matter. Of course, they do. You want people to be healthy, but at least you got your eternity at place. And then we deal with what’s happening right now.

Speaker 5:
And I want to say something regarding that. So when I was in high school, I forgot about this until she just said this. You want to belong really badly. You want to have a place. So I didn’t have a place until the stoners said, “Be our friend.” And I didn’t want to be a stoner. And every time they passed the joint around, I just passed it. I didn’t smoke it. And then one day I did. And then I had that break, a three day being high. But you still want to belong. It scared me, but I still wanted to belong.

Speaker 5:
So one night I was with a friend, we were looking for someone to sell us some pot. We couldn’t find anyone to sell it to us. So she said, “I know these cute guys that go to church. Let’s go to church with them.” We just wanted to meet some cute guys. We had no religious thought in our brain. So instead of smoking pot, we went to church. And that’s the night I gave my life to Christ. I remember sitting in the back of that meeting, and I’m looking at the guys. And all of a sudden I heard the pastor say, “There are some of you out there with a lack and an emptiness in your life.” And all of a sudden, my head just went shh, like the holy spirit just went, listen. And I just started weeping. And I did not know why I was weeping.

Speaker 5:
Remember, it just started out with wanting to smoke pot to belong. But somebody who loved God asked a friend to come to church. So we went. And then you have an encounter with the holy spirit. I cried. I wept. I walked out of that place. Never smoked pot again, never. I was going to walk with Jesus Christ. You guys have a power in the holy spirit. Everyone wants that love of God that they even aren’t thinking about. So I didn’t mean to interrupt this.

Dr. Julie Hayden:
I promise we didn’t plan that. That’s amazing. That’s so cool. Wow.

Speaker 5:
You have the power of the love and of God. And Jesus said, “Don’t be drunk with wine. Be filled with the spirit.” He could say, “Don’t be high on pot. You don’t need it. Be filled with the spirit.” So as you’re filled with a spirit, your friend who’s on pot says, what is it she has, or he has? And you just speak about your life. And you say, “When you’re ready to get rid of that, I have a better way.” I’m sorry. That’s it.

Speaker 2:
Do you have any last words?

Dr. Julie Hayden:
No. I just appreciate you. I’m very open. If anybody wants to call me, email me, ask me questions. I’ll stay after.

Speaker 2:
Awesome. Cute. Can we have a round of applause for Dr. Julie Hayden?

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