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Dr. Don Welch:
Welcome to My Therapist Sez, an interactive experience enriching your most important relationships. I’ll be your host and moderator as we present Friends and Family First Aid: Helping People in Difficult Situations and Continuing to Keep Your Own Boundaries.
During this broadcast, I’m joined by Dr. Julie Hayden, a regular presenter on this broadcast. Dr. Hayden is a licensed psychologist, Executive Director of Rhombus, Clinical Director at Genesis Recovery San Diego, and a psychology professor at Southern California Seminary Graduate School of Behavioral Sciences.
In a few moments, Dr. Hayden will provide you with key insights for setting healthy boundaries. She and I will then respond to your questions while, hopefully, providing you with practical relationship tools.
Today’s event takes place before a live audience and live streaming while offering biblical, practical, and scientific solutions. It’s like having your own Christian mental health relationship doctor within the comforts of your living room. I hope you will sit back, relax, and take in these life-changing insights. Please join me as we connect with a live audience in My Therapist Sez.
Well, welcome to My Therapist Sez, and we’re so glad that you are here again this evening with us, and I’d like to welcome Dr. Julie Hayden as she is going to now produce and welcome us to her presentation. So, Dr. Julie Hayden. Would you join me in welcoming Dr. Julie Hayden. Excuse me.
Dr. Julie Hayden:
Thank you. I’m very excited to be here. I’m excited about this topic. I want to give you a little bit of context as we get started. The reason I entered into this topic was many people in their family want to help maybe children, maybe adult children, their cousins, people in the family, also people in the church that they’re close with, that are struggling with addictions, domestic violence, some of these very intense situations they can see they need help, they want to support, but how? What are you supposed to do? If you go to help, how do you not get worn out and exhausted and hiding in the corner by some of the things that you might have to deal with when you reach out to help somebody out in these difficult times.
So, tonight, I want to give you just the gold, the good stuff, the ways to help and still stay protected and healthy in the midst of it. So, we’ll go ahead and get started. I’d like you to have a biblical foundation. Anytime I start, we’ll move to the next slide, and we’ll move pretty fast tonight. There’s a lot to cover in a short period of time.
I want you to have a context because I think you can go to help people and be arrogant and do more harm than good. So, with a biblical context, I believe we have a humility that allows us to be effective in helping. So, if you go back to Genesis and you understand we were created perfect in God’s likeness, and then Adam sinned. The whole world changed at that moment, right? We were created man, woman, offspring, go multiply, subdue the earth, and when Adam sinned, there were curses that came upon us.
One, we were separated from God. We were going to need a savior one day. Our bodies were cursed. Not only would we physically die, but also we would have diseases and chemical imbalances, and everything that comes with age and wrinkles, and we’re just going to fall apart physically.
Also, we have the whole world cursed. We have to work hard in order to get food. Before, it was easy. Before sin, they were in the garden, and everything was easy. So, now, we’re going to have to work hard. So, there’s all these factors that come from the curse and the fall, including war or enmity between Satan’s seed and woman’s seed, right? They’re at the very beginning between family, how God created people on Earth from the beginning of time, man, woman, offspring, there’s a war against woman’s seed and Satan’s seed.
That spiritual war we can se play out today in the attack against the family. So, some of the struggles we’re going to look at tonight fit into that context. It’s not on accident we’re struggling with all of these difficulties. There’s a war out there for our families and for the families in our church. Everybody is going to be somehow affected by the ripple effect of long ago, the fall of mankind.
I want to remember the good side of that in just that even in Genesis 3 when all the curses are listed, he also then promises a savior will come. So, Christ came. He died. He rose. We can conquer sin, but while we’re stuck on Earth, we still have a battle. Our sin nature bent on evil, it left to ourselves, everything is going to go downhill. We’re going to get ourselves into trouble. All of that comes natural to us, and then we have a fight between that sin nature and now the Holy Spirit. All the power of God accessible to us to fight this battle right there, but it’s going to be a battle. It’s not going to be easy. We’re going to wrestle in this world to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be who we know we are positionally before God.
So, in that context, that’s what we start out with as we enter into this topic of you all helping other people in the midst of some of these difficult things. Look at some of the areas families are being attacked currently. Domestic violence, maybe somebody has an affair. You may have somebody you know dealing with this. Maybe they had a porn addiction, and it was found out, and now, the relationship is going through a difficult time.
Maybe somebody has had a young teen pregnant or somebody’s had an abortion. Maybe there’s some kind of an addiction that is keeping them separate from their family and destroying the family and they’re having a hard time pulling it together and getting to a good healthy place.
We have so many things in our society against the biblical worldview eating away the core of a family unit. We might stand back and be in shock at how much destruction is around. We want to help. How do we dive in and help? How do we protect ourselves when we come to some of these topics? So, let’s keep going, but I hope you picture in your mind who’s in your mind that you want to reach out and help but you want to still stay healthy and protected.
We come to problem behaviors. I want you to be able to pick up quickly when you see something that fits this. So, let’s look at what we’re dealing with. How you would notice if somebody needs your help? You need to jump and maybe be that first contact for them getting further help. You want to listen and observe. Even in your church, you can notice and pay attention to those people that you see and say hi every Sunday or when you get together on a weekday. When you’re interacting with other people, you can listen and observe.
You want to listen to language. Sometimes when people are suicidal or depressed or have severe anxiety, they’ll tell you. There’ll be communication in their language. Also, in their nonverbal communication. Are they isolating? Have they disappeared? You don’t see them anymore. Maybe you can notice how they have look. They look miserable. There’s something different that you can catch, maybe nobody will be able to catch.
Maybe there’s drastic changes. Working a lot with addictions, this is always key. If somebody has a certain personality and all of a sudden today they’re different, what’s going on? That’s a red flag. So, what changes have you seen in their personality, in anything else? So, go back one more time. Go back to the last slide. Don’t want to skip too much.
Maybe in their appearance. If somebody is really depressed, they might not be showering. They might smell. There might be a change to something in their physical appearance that you notice. If there’s patterns in their values, they’ve always had something very important, now it’s changed. It’s not important anymore. What’s going on? Why is there changes to their values or their behaviors or their relationships? Let’s keep going.
Examples of behavior. You’ll notice some of these all fit into a category. A lot of times, this is depression, it’s anxiety, it’s suicidality, it’s addictions. That’s because you’re dealing with the same part of the brain that’s affecting all of this. So, you might have somebody that all of a sudden has too much sleep, too little sleep, eats too much, won’t eat at all. Their hygiene might be affected. They might be isolating. In their language or how they communicate, they’ve lost hope. They don’t think they can change anything in their life. They’ve lost hope.
They might actually be irritable. Actually, kids and teens, if they’re depressed, they might be agitated and irritated easily. You might not see them necessarily sad. So, pay attention to that. Anger might be depression in guise. They might not be crying. They might not look sad, but it might be depression that is going to be demonstrated in anger. So, look for those behaviors in them.
I want to just take you to a moment of using scripture because I think frontline impact, something that you can do right away to help is to share a scripture, but this could backfire. So, I want to help you learn how to do this well. We’re going to look as we continue on what not to do. So, in that, you don’t want to use scripture too quickly. You want to be careful when you use scripture to encourage and to motivate, not to bring shame or to make sure they know what they’re doing is a sin.
There’s a place for that in a church, but sometimes there’s a hundred people ready to tell them how they’re sinning. Who’s there to help encourage them and know what to do about their lifestyle difficulty? So, that’s something to remember is be careful not to jump in with scripture that would cause them to just feel more miserable, but you can share a scripture and there’s plenty that give hope.
So, one way to look at this is to have themes. Instead of picking one scripture out, sometimes you can talk about the themes, for example, how Christ forgives. Somebody may be holding a weight of shame on their shoulders, they can’t forgive themselves. Well, reminding them if Christ forgave you, why do you think you can hold it on your shoulders? If he can forgive you, can you forgive yourself?
So, sticking with themes of scriptures might really help, for example that God loves this person and will leave them nor forsake them even if they want them to, even if they’re walking away from God, the promise of God holding them in the palm of his hand. Themes out of scripture that can encourage.
I put some here, but there’s just those good little scriptures that help. So, you might be ready with those. One is talking about anxiety. One is talking about your thinking. Having your thinking, thinking of what’s righteous and pure, that’s huge. That can change your day if that’s what you’re focused on.
So, I gave some examples here, but you might have your go-to bible verses that are encouraging and help people realize a God perspective on the situation. So, that’s just a little tip in using scripture, but, again, be careful not to say, “Go pray. If you had enough faith, this would disappear,” because even though God can do whatever he wants, sometimes he doesn’t. He doesn’t a heal person. They might have to struggle. How can you encourage them through the middle of that even if that problem doesn’t disappear?
Let’s keep going. So, what I want you to do is look at this next slide at some of the things that you can tangibly do. I put here stop and listen and that’s really important because sometimes we react. Now, when I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking of a parent that their kid just came and told them something they did not want to hear. It’s easy to react, but sometimes in reacting, we shut that person down. They will not come back to us.
So, how can we keep the communication open and that is just what I will call a game face. As a counselor, you always have to have a game face. As a parent, it’s a good idea. If you’re in ministry, I think it’s very valuable. No matter what that person tells you, can you be calm and not react? If you can do that, you still may have to go address a problem at some point, but it’s not the immediate reaction that they get from you. That’s important to keep that trust, keep that communication, so you have a chance of helping them eventually.
So, slow down. Don’t rush. Sometimes I’ve seen people say something because they think, “If I don’t say something right now, I’m the only person that will be able to help this person and say truth right now,” that’s not true. God could use five other people besides you. So, to remember it’s okay, there’s no rush usually, and to just stay calm and not react.
Be curious. Ask questions. That’s a good way to keep that communication open also. Instead of reacting, ask for more information. Get to know their story. What’s going on? Just because you’re talking with them and maybe even encouraging them or having care and compassion, it doesn’t mean you’re approving of whatever they’re doing.
You’re going to be looking for strategies to help them. If it’s unhealthy, if it’s against scripture, you’re going to want them to go in a better road, where it’s more in line with scripture possibly or at least healthier. If you do that, there’ll be time and opportunity, but if you rush that at the beginning, they’ll probably shut down.
So, just because you’re helping with somebody and maybe validating, “I’m so sorry. That sounds so frustrating,” it doesn’t mean you’re approving of whatever they’re telling you. You’re leaving the door open to continue getting them help. They are not alone in their behavior. This is true. Even if there’s something horrific somebody just told you, they are not alone.
There are many people most likely that have struggled with that same thing, and that is so helpful for somebody to recognize that they’re not alone, other people have dealt with this, and other people have gotten help. So, if you can encourage them, just normalize it like, “This does happen. I’ve heard of this before.” That can really make an impact on a person not to be scared to get help.
Sometimes they stay away because they think, “I am the only person that is this sick.” They think, “Nobody else would have thought of this or done this. I’m the worst.” Then they realized, “Nope. You’re right along many others that have done and thought the same thing. It’s okay. There’s hope. Let’s get you help.”
So, to normalize not to say it’s okay, but so that they can realize they’re not alone, that’s very helpful. So, you can just make a statement, “Actually, I’ve heard of this before. I have known other people struggling with this also, and there’s hope. Let me get you some help. Tell me more.” Okay? Let’s keep going.
Listening. Most people are thinking quickly what to say, but that’s usually the least valuable thing. There’s not some magical words or wonderful wisdom. If you’re going to do that, definitely quote scripture. Don’t just say what you’re thinking because, usually, it’s not what you say. It will come later how you help them. So, if you can listen, maybe the story will unfold. You’ll gain more wisdom and ability to help them effectively. If you jump to saying something, it’s more likely that either it won’t be helpful or they’ll shut down.
So, at the beginning, make sure to keep them talking. Get more information. You want to pay attention to their nonverbal. Maybe they’re saying something, but their body is telling you something else. Ask them about that. Be curious.
Encouragers are just statements you might say like, “Tell me more. That’s interesting. Wow, I’m surprised. I would like to know more. Tell me about this.” You keep them talking. Keep getting their story.
With reflection, it’s when you try to say what they just said back to them. This is important because are you listening? So, if you say it back to them and they look at you like you’re crazy, you missed it somewhere along the way. If you say it and they go, “Yes. Exactly. That’s exactly it,” you’re on the right track. Keep going. So, every once in a while, try to say back to them what they’re telling you and see if you’re on track.
Put yourself in their shoes. Think what it might be like to have gone through whatever they went through, what they’re doing right now, how they might be feeling. This will really help you understand and be empathetic, care, and then get them to the right person for help.
Then summarize is like reflection, where you’re going to in the end just summarize what you think they just told you before you move on. Make sure you have what’s going on in their life accurate. Let’s keep going.
Here’s the do not’s, okay? So, I would say a lot of times these do not’s come from a good place, but they’re not usually very helpful. So, if you think if they just knew this, everything would be fixed, and you really want to say what you want to tell them, it’s probably not going to work. First of all, they’re probably not listening, really, at that point. It’s better to develop a relationship for longterm supporting them to get help because a lot of times, especially in the crisis, they’re not listening to you.
So, if you think if you could just get these words out, if you just taught them something or gave them information, they would learn and everything would be fine, it’s probably not going to work. If you think, “I have the answer,” you’re probably not going to be effective.
If you’re trying to figure out how to right the wrong, it might not go anywhere. These are things to be careful of. Okay? If you say, “I know exactly how you feel because this happened to me, too. I had a divorce, and we fought all the time,” if you go into a personal story, even though that seems like that’s a good idea because it is helpful for people to know others have gone through this, “I’m not alone,” that’s a value. Most of the time, their brain shuts off. They actually don’t want to hear about your story.
So, that’s not always the case, but that is most of the time. It’s not helpful usually for somebody to hear another person knows exactly how they feel because you might not. Every person is different. It might sound like the same story, but you want to be validated for what you’re feeling, not to know somebody else can read your mind or feel exactly what you’re feeling. So, be careful with that.
If you’re telling them what to do, you probably already lost the battle because, first of all, they probably won’t listen, and if they follow your instructions and do what you do, then it’s not sustainable. You need them to learn something and be healthy all by themselves. So, if you jump in and tell them what to do, a lot of times then it’s not something they can continue on. So, be careful not to just give instructions.
If you’re judging or critical, they’ll shut down. We all know this, but sometimes we still judge and say critical things. If you withdraw, if you find out they’re going through a difficult time so you just get nervous and back away and now they’re alone, I don’t think that’s a good response. Maybe you have to, but if possible, keep the open communication. Don’t just withdraw from them, even if it’s a very difficult topic.
Warning, threatening, these are things that could backfire. Providing solutions, same thing as telling them what to do, if you provide solutions, how do you know that’s the right solution, first of all? It may backfire. I think of domestic violence when you’re trying to help somebody leave. People will pour so much time and energy into helping that person leave, and then a week later, they go back and they hate you.
So, you just have to know where a person is at, guide them, support them, but they need to do most of the work. If you’re doing more work than them, it’s not going to work. If you have more energy, more investment in whatever is happening than that person, it’s going to backfire. So, be careful with that.
Shaming. To make that person all of who they are bad, there’s a difference in something they’re doing is wrong. You can call a sin sin. It’s usually not helpful in the moment, they know, everybody’s told them. So, sometimes there is an appropriate time to say, “This is not in line with God’s word. It’s not a good road to go on.” There’s a time and a place for that.
Most of the time, if somebody is stuck in an addiction, if somebody is in a bad place in their life, they know it’s a sin and others have told them that. So, how can you be different in getting them to help and guiding them in the right direction? So, that’s something to be careful with is not reacting in such a way where you’re labeling them as, “You, yuck. Who you are is bad.” Okay? Be careful with that.
Interrupting. Let them tell their story. That’s actually helpful all by itself. So, as you’re getting information and listening, let them get it out. Be careful not to interrupt. Okay?
Setting boundaries. If you’re entering into helping people, especially if you care about them, if they are close to you, if their life is in danger and you’re trying to support them and help them, and yet you’re emotionally distraught, you’re waiting for the phone call, there’s these things that you’re wrapped up in how much it’s affecting your life, it’s exhausting, you may be worn out and not helpful for anybody. So, setting boundaries is important.
So, we’re going to look at what are healthy boundaries, but one way I like it, it comes from Cloud and Townsend, they have a famous boundaries book, but the idea of a yard and the yard is yours, and you’re responsible for it, and you can have, if you’re one extreme, a brick wall all the way around. So, whatever is in stays in, nothing’s getting out, no goods coming in. If you’re unhealthy, all the bad is going to stay stuck, right, but you’ve got your wall up, and nobody is breaking through.
You can also have no fence, so other people’s dogs are pooping on your yard, and you can’t do anything about it. Nobody knows where your yard ends or stops, and there’s no boundaries, whatsoever. So, you know those people, where they have no boundaries in their relationships, even physical boundaries, emotional boundaries. They’re all over the place. That’s not going to help either.
A good boundary, it’s really clear. You have a fence, and there’s a gate. You could decide, “Do I open this gate, let something in or out? Do I close this gate?” So, if you can set a boundary in relationships, you might say, for example, addictions, you could say, “When you’re ready to get help, you get in a treatment program. I’ll be right there supporting you. If you don’t want help, I’m not going to be helping you financially.” That’s a boundary.
If you can stick to it, the negatives, if they stay in addiction, start increasing. It can be overwhelming, maybe they’re homeless, you’re over here crying because your kid is homeless, and yet, it might be enough where they finally seek help. So, setting a boundary is important to protect you and also sometimes it’s the way another person will experience it negative enough to actually want help. Okay?
So, does having boundaries mean that you don’t care? No. Actually, it shows love. Think of parenting. When you put up boundaries, that’s love. Those that might be in foster care or in situations where they’re moving a lot and/or in families where they don’t have any rules, they can do whatever they want, they have a very hard time. They don’t learn boundaries for themselves. They don’t know where the boundaries are. It’s scary, and you’ll see later in adult life a lot of problems from that. They want boundaries. They want to know what they’re allowed to do and not allowed to do, and where those boundaries are.
So, boundaries show love. If you can remember that when it’s hard, when you’re setting the boundary and you feel like you’re going against them, that you want to help them, you want to rescue them, but you’re holding to the boundary, that line is showing love and it gives them a chance to actually change something, to actually show you they can do it on their own. If they do, there’s hope for sustainability. If they figure that out, they’ll be able to do this without you. So, that’s an important part is for them to change their life from inside out. They can do it whether you’re there or not. So, that’s exciting if they can get there.
How did Christ have boundaries is something to consider also because he demonstrated it for us. If you go through and read his life here, he always had boundaries, what he allowed or didn’t allow, even times where they were coming in like your mom wants to see, he had a boundary, “I’m doing my father’s work,” and it wasn’t that he didn’t love his mom. He knew what his priority was at that time, and he could put the boundary. So, learning from Christ’s example is a good strategy as well. So, let’s keep going.
For tips, know yourself. What can you take? What wears you out? If you are in groups and you get exhausted, you need to not be in groups all the time. If you need time alone, if something is too much for you, you know it’s going to … If you experience it, you’re not going to be ready for your kids. It’s going to take too much out of you. Know your limitations. Know how you work. Pay attention to your body if it’s telling you something. Okay?
So, get to know yourself and what you can handle and not handle. You cannot rescue the world. So, if you’re going to make an impact, know what is reasonable for you to take on as your responsibility. Realize that saying no is an opportunity. Okay? If you say no to somebody, that gives them a chance to do something different. If you say, “No, I can’t help you with this,” what are they going to do? Opens up an opportunity for some other road. So, if you can see it like that, sometimes it helps.
One thing is you might as well try it. So, it doesn’t even mean you won’t just give in later, but practice it. Somebody asked you something, you’re just used to giving in, say no. Wait a day. See what happens. Sometimes they figure it out. You gave them a chance to figure it out without you. That’s powerful. They will know, “I did it.” It feels good when they don’t have to rely on somebody else that they always have. When they can do it for themselves, that could empower them to hopefully have courage for future.
Prioritize needs. Everybody may need your help. Is that true or are some more important than others? How can you filter? You can’t save everybody. So, how are you going to decide what’s important for you to jump in, be there for that person, and help? So, be careful to prioritize needs, and maybe to delegate.
Can somebody else next to you just as easily help this person? Send them on over. Okay? Maybe even in your church, you could have infrastructure where you’re like, “Send them over there. Send them over there.” How can you delegate to another person? Do you have another family member that’s just as capable of going and supporting them to save you for the time that is got to be you and you’re ready and you’re refreshed? So, see if you can delegate.
Remind self of the value of boundaries. Continue to remind yourself when you wake up in the morning, especially if you struggle in this area, “Boundaries show love. This is good. When I can say no, it’s going to help this person in the end.” Remind yourself of that.
Offer alternatives. So, if they’re asking you, “I need money for this, and if I don’t have it, I’ll be homeless.” “Okay. Is that true or are there options?” So, looking at alternatives. Instead of allowing somebody else to give you one option, let’s think of other options. How many alternatives are there? Maybe alternatives help you and then they can see, “Okay. Can you go this direction? Maybe you can stay at the shelter. What are some other options?”
Don’t confuse being needed with being loved. So, different than somebody else trying to take advantage of you. You may love to rescue. You may look for a person in need to give your whole life, energy, resources to, and that actually has nothing to do with the person’s need. It has to do with maybe a craving in you. So, pay attention to your own needs because if you just naturally want to rescue and help somebody because you feel good, be careful. Is that real or are you feeling this need that actually will never be met? You’ll always find another person that needs you. Really, you want to be loved. So, be careful because that’s usually what Christ needs to fulfill, your relationship with Christ having that emptiness filled, then you can in a healthy way help people.
So, the end is make sure that you seek help for the person when it’s something that you should not be handling. There’s plenty of things that you’ll be able to dive in and help and encourage. Pouring back into other people’s live, and you can manage that just fine and not destroy your immediate family, but sometimes it’s too big.
If somebody is suicidal, if somebody is severely depressed, if somebody has severe anxiety, if the parenting struggles are just too intense, if there’s domestic violence, these types of things you may need to seek help. So, how do you do that?
I’m looking here at some of the other ones might be if somebody’s dealing with childhood problems, maybe they were abused as a child, very deep emotional needs. If you go to help, sometimes that person can spiral, and you won’t know how to put them back together. It can be harmful instead of helpful if you’re not careful.
So, extreme behaviors that might jeopardize safety or reality, be careful. Figure out how to have a good referral base that you can send them to somebody who can help. I’m thinking of PTSD, homicidal threats, suicide, psychosis. These are extreme things that people that you care about will be dealing with, but you may not be the one to help. You may want to get them to the right person to help.
If helping them hurts you or your family, I don’t think it’s a good idea. What is your responsibility? What’s in your yard? If you start helping others at the expense of yourself and what’s your responsibility, that’s going to backfire. So, be careful with that and look for in the next slide who to refer to. Have resources.
Here, you have a ton of resources. So, you shouldn’t have any problems, at least starting with somebody that can help you find resources, but there’s a lot of resources out there, and you can actually do some work and maybe gather some who can help if somebody’s homeless, if somebody needs food, if somebody is in an addiction. You can have your own referral base or maybe you just have a counselor that’s good at networking and knows a lot of referrals.
So, maybe somebody in the church, maybe a therapist, maybe an addictions counselor, maybe at a hospital you have a connection, but you know where to send somebody if it’s too big for you, and then find a good strategy for helping. Do a warm handoff. That’s the hard part. Even though you know they need to go into treatment, they may never want to. So, then you’re just guiding them, “Let me go with you to talk to the treatment provider,” maybe it’s drugs or alcohol. “Let me go with you and talk with you,” so you can guide them, you can be supportive of them on their road where they really need to go to get the help, and that could be a very important role because it’s scary.
So, they may even know they need help, but to actually get it from an outside source might be scary. So, it might be you walking with them to get that help, but know your resources.
So, broadly, as we looked at all of this, the idea is if you’re doing more than them, watch out. If when you’re helping somebody and you’re doing something that they could do for themself, you’re taking away some of their power, not in a weird way, but in a way like, “Yes, I did it. I had a goal. I did it.” You take that from them when you do it for them.
So, if there’s anything they can do by themselves, allow them to do it. Don’t jump in and help too soon. Then again, don’t do more than what they’re doing for their problem. Okay? So, those are just broad strokes. We’ll have some time interacting, but I’d like to get some questions and see how this could apply to you as well. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Dr. Hayden. Yes. If you have questions, I know the 3×5 cards, if you would raise those up in the air. We have some hands, at least two or three, that just went up. Just want to go back to the wonderful presentation on very practical skills and how to bring aid to loved ones, friends, those that really do need our help. Let’s start with your particular statement that said, “Don’t confuse being needed and loved.”
I know you described that for us, but you talked about the idea that we may wish to rescue someone, and that we shouldn’t confuse being needed and loved. That seems like a really fine line between those two. Can you help us to understand a little more, tease that out just a bit for those of us who like to rescue, we want to make it work for them, and we almost want to do the work for them?
Yeah. It’s probably too much to go into where this comes from, but you’ll find it out of childhood. You’ll find it early on in somebody’s life in how maybe they attached with their parent, but the outcome is they find value in who they are by helping somebody. So, if there’s nobody to help, it’s like they disappear. They lost themselves.
So, that’s very difficult. Really, they want somebody to say, “I love you. You’re worth it. I need you.” They want that relationship. So, it’s confusing when you talk about it like that because these are things inside us that push us, that drive us. We don’t even know. So, that’s what it looks like on the surface is that we will find somebody to help. Counselors, actually, are at risk for this.
They go into the counseling field. They want to save somebody, rescue somebody, help somebody. If they can’t, it feels like there’s no value to them. So, that’s a natural thing. Usually, people can recognize it themselves and if that is you, then I would just say be careful because it’s not reality. Your value has nothing to do with who you’re helping. Your value is already there in Christ.
So, to have that fulfilled in Christ because it’s truth, in truth you’re already valuable, now go help somebody, and then it will be less confusing. Then you’ll have a clear head helping somebody instead of your value being tied up in whether you’re going to help them or not.
So, let’s go just a little further with that because it’s so well-said about where we find our value because you mentioned that in the presentation that if we have that void and we’re filling it trying to rescue, help someone else instead of allowing the Holy Spirit, God to be within us and guide us and speak to us because we really need his presence in our lives. We seek that in many different ways, which you mentioned so well.
What is this idea of my value? So, what if someone says, “Well, I do have the Lord. The Lord is working with me. I walk with him. He walks with me. We communicate well. Yet, I still have this insatiable desire to really serve others that I find my most fulfillment when I’m serving.” Let’s utilizing serve instead of rescue, but there’s a tendency for us in the Christian world to say that. How would you speak to someone that’s, say, in your session as a therapist, someone that says that, “Well, I know the Lord is with me. However, I’m most fulfilled when I’m just really helping someone in a situation,” and they’re crossing boundaries? They don’t have those healthy boundaries like the backyard illustration, the metaphor of which you spoke.
I would say ask yourself, you’re helping at what expense? So, if there’s no damage, it might be fine. If you’re just helping people all the time and it’s okay, but sometimes it’s at the expense of our own family, our husband, our wife now gets the lay mend of it all, our children, our craviness, and yet we’re somewhere else helping.
So, at what expense? Is it at the expense of our health? Are we getting sick and exhausted because of how much we’re serving? So, it’s at the expense of our health. So, pay attention and just ask yourself, “I love this. I’m serving. I’m helping. At what expense?” Be careful to keep that balance. So, have your priorities, and I think the bible is what gives us our priorities.
So, if you’re single, you have less to worry about. If you are married, now you know your priorities. If you have children, now you have different priorities. So, pay attention to what God would say through scripture is your priority and make sure you’re not sacrificing what God says is higher priority for somebody else.
So, it’s priorities. So, we’re looking at our priorities, where do they line up. Then also, we’re looking at our family, our health, our own environment. What are other ways? I just want to stay on this for a moment because I see this so often with good Christian people. They’re wanting to do the right thing. They may have a family member of which we’re speaking tonight. They may have a family member that’s really challenged and they overfunction, we call it in the situation.
So, if I’m looking at my family, I’m looking at my children, I’m looking at my spouse, I’m looking at my own health, what are ways for me, I know I keep asking a question in just a little tweaked way here, just tweaking it a bit, what are some ways to get feedback to let me know that I am overdoing this area of, say, rescuing or serving or giving too much in a way?
Well, I think it depends on you. If you can self-evaluate accurately, it might be fine. Again, you just say, “How’s my health? How’s my relationships?” Check with your partner. If you’re married, check with your spouse. Check with your kids. Keep open lines of communication. So, if you’re able to be honest with yourself, you might be able to stop in the morning and pay attention, “How’s my marriage? How’s my children? How’s my work? How’s my health?”
If you fool yourself easily, which is sometimes the case with this situation, then maybe find a person that knows you and can help you look at yourself accurately. So, it might be a good friend. It might be your spouse that will be very honest with you. You can say, “I know I struggle with balance. I want to help people, but sometimes it’s at the expense of what’s really important. How am I doing? What do you think?”
I would say get accountability on that because we may fool ourselves. So, who can help us be accurate in how we view all of these areas? Here’s the thing. Is it helpful? So, I think of a parent with addiction just because it’s just fresh in my mind with all of this. Sometimes they worry all hours of the night. They might rescue all the time, but in the end, it’s not actually helping anything. So, pay attention to that, too.
Outcomes. Is all your helping producing something really valuable? Is that person’s life changed and everything’s on a good road or is it just keeping the cycle going of chaos? It’s almost like an addiction in and of itself to the chaos. Is the chaos staying exactly the same or is it actually your effort does and in something good? So, that’s another thing is look at outcomes, and make sure you’re not stuck in something that will never end and never go anywhere productive.
Very well-said. I was just thinking of how those of us privileged have had children in our homes and watching a little infant roll over. I remember clapping and getting all excited with my wife Robin about our little children rolling over. Of course, there’s a tendency to want to, “Let me help you a little more with your rolling over.” Of course, they need to do it themselves to next be able to crawl, right? Do the Miramar crawl here in San Diego, but crawl, and then being able to pull themselves up before they can actually begin to walk. So, that’s another way to look at it that we can be premature in allowing the other person you mentioned grow in the process of perhaps the struggle, if you will.
So, let’s go to this question, but I really appreciate you helping in that. I see so many people that will go, “How do I really know if I’m really overdoing this?” That’s a common question that’s asked us therapists and that is how to discern that. So, I think you helped us to do that. Thank you for that.
This particular question that’s come to us and, again, please feel free to bring your questions or to text your question directly to me upfront here, and that is, “How to openly talk to an addict about their use? In other words, how to respect their illness without tiptoeing around the words or the subject?” This is your expertise. I think many of you may have known I did an introduction earlier that this actually Dr. Hayden is where she spends a great deal of your time with people with addictions and helping them. So, this is a perfect question for Dr. Julie Hayden here this evening. So, “How to openly talk to an addict about their use? In other words, how to respect their illness without tiptoeing around the words or the subject?”
Very good. I think of that situation just asking them questions and just saying, “I don’t know that much about addictions. Can you tell me about it?” Because on the flip side, I’ll have guys that are dealing with addictions and then their family doesn’t have any idea. So, it’s a lot of judgment, “Why don’t you just stop? You don’t love us or you would stop,” but there’s a whole process that’s extremely difficult.
So, one of the greatest things that happens is just the family getting educated about addiction so they understand it, and so they can have compassion and know what to expect. So, if I could just picture one of my guys, if their family member turned to them and said, “I don’t understand addictions. Can you tell me about it?” they would love it. They will want to share.
They might be uncomfortable like what do they share. They’re nervous the other person is going to judge them as a terrible person sometimes because of what might happen in the middle of an addiction, but that is a good place to start. Then be careful. Have your game face. You can’t ask them to share about addiction and then be shocked and disgusted. Have your game face. Come from a place of humility and compassion, and you can learn. That will very much inform a lot of what you do later. That’s a great strategy. Just ask them to talk about it.
What makes it so difficult? What it’s like when they’re trying not to use, and then they relapse? How do they feel after? What are the things that trigger them, that they just all of a sudden often go relapse? What’s it like? Then that might help you grow with compassion as well.
So, I think it’s very cool. You might be surprised at the positive reaction that they might have to share even if they’re actively using because it’s a battle. It’s not like they’re just using, could care less about anybody. Usually, it’s a tremendous battle there in the middle of everyday not wanting to and still doing it. It’s very overwhelming. So, to be free to talk about that might be very helpful.
Let’s talk about the game face. You use that for therapists. You use that for the people who may be facing the addiction. I think it’s very well-said. I’d like to build on that for just a moment.
One of the things that I have experienced with my patients and you experience it much more so because this is the area of your expertise is the person who’s trying to have the game face, trying to listen, trying to ask the questions, trying not to be shocked because it’s raising my own anxieties, I hear what’s being said, you mean, you face this daily. I mean, this is an urge that happens frequently in your life, I mean, during the day, I mean, multiple times during the day, and my anxiety goes up. How do you help the person that’s asking those good questions you mentioned? How do you help with their own fear, their own anxiety, the overwhelming feelings that can come because we dearly care for the person we’re asking these questions?
Yes. So, I think two quick strategies, one is in your mind, one is in your body. So, to take deep breaths and to use strategies for staying calm with your body and being okay with it. Say, your body is freaking out, that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong. Nothing is going to happen. So, as you feel it, you tell your brain, “It’s okay. Just relax. Just stay calm.”
So, what’s happening in your brain may be you’re talking to yourself, “Relax. It’s okay.” Then as believers, we have an advantage because bottom line is God’s in control. God cares about this person more than you do. So, you can start bringing up those truths. It’s fine. God has this person. He will help me through this. He will help this person. He loves it. It is not on your shoulders. Bottom line. That’s the truth of it. We may feel like we’re putting it on our shoulders, but in reality, it’s between that person and God. God’s way capable. He is powerful. So, you’re telling yourself this.
So, as you’re just practicing this, I would say it takes practice, but it’s taking deep breaths and talking to yourself while you’re also trying to pay attention and listening to what they’re saying, and you’re telling yourself, “It’s okay. Just relax. Everything is going to be fine.” Later, you might have to go take a shower and cry and process what was just said.
The reason you do that is not to be fake. The reason you do that is because the other person needs to feel safe and comfortable to keep talking. If they get a negative reaction, they’re going to be scared and close up. So, you’re just trying to allow them to be okay continuing to talk with you. So, it’s one strategy you can do. So, taking deep breaths, talking to yourself in your mind, remembering the truth out of the situation.
So, you talked about practice, which I think is so important. A lot of times people will practice a skill when they’re in the middle of needing that skill rather than practicing it in preparation for when it’s needed. So, think about it from the standpoint, am I correct in this, that it might be helpful for the person with the fear, the question I raised, for them to practice in front of the mirror having the game face. Practice in the mirror thinking of something shocking being said to you and you watch your face not light up like mine or your jaw drop like that, but notice how you can respond rather than react in the mirror and practice for when you’re going to have that situation. We forget to that, I think, in these types of situations.
So, with this idea of practicing, there’s another particular question that’s been raised that talks about, “I have a mentally ill son who talks in extremely long sentences, and seems to never get to the conclusion. He doesn’t like to be interrupted, but it is difficult to wait for him to finish speaking, and I find my mind wandering. Any suggestions?”
So, this is almost the antithetical, the opposite of what we were talking about that the person becomes perhaps, even though this is obviously very painful, very deeply painful, perhaps even searing, is that there’s a sense of no longer being able to focus in on it. What would you suggest at that point?
Sure. So, on that one, I can see talking ahead of time with the person, so that they know what you’re going to do. Even if they’re irritated at that moment, if you do it often, it could be something that they’re okay with. So, at the beginning talking about, “I have a hard time when you talk so long. I need to stop you sometimes. I’m not trying to be rude. It’s just sometimes I have to leave or there’s something I need to do. So, I want you to know ahead of time if you’re talking for a long time, I might have to stop you. Some days, we can just talk for a long time. It’s not a problem.”
So, you’re prepping them. Then when you go to do it, if they’re talking, talking, “I have to stop you. I need to leave. Can we come back to this?” So, try to come from a way of not ending it, but coming back to it.
This is not the same, but I think of an example, a counselor running groups. Sometimes you have to listen to everybody, but one person wants to talk the entire time. So, sometimes in the group you’ll go, “That’s a really important topic. I want to save that for later while I jump over here.”
So, you might even have something in your mind where you say, “I really want to hear this, and I want to know what happens in the end, but I have to stop you because I need to check, are you going to go to the grocery store for me later?” You change the topic to something that ends. So, that’s one strategy is to validate whatever they’re saying, “This seems really stressful to you. I need to end the conversation, though, because I’ve got to go, but I want to come back and check on you and see how it went.”
Now, at that moment, he may yell and scream, and be mad at you, but if you do it consistently, he might get used to it. If there’s a way for him to know, “I’m getting stopped now but I can come back,” and you could even say, “It’s too exhausting. It’s too exhausting for me. I can’t talk for that long.”
If you’re a guy, say, “I’m a guy. We got two minutes in us. You know that.” You might joke with it. Use humor, and just say, “I love talking with you, but I only can have 10 minutes.” Boundary.
Now, you give undivided attention for 10 minutes. At the end of 10 minutes, “10 minutes are up. I got to go.” Many times, say somebody is schizophrenic or bipolar, they don’t have the boundaries in and of themselves naturally sometimes, but they’re fine with rules. They hate them at first, but then they become really … It’s okay. So, just make up a rule.
“Whenever we talk, I got 10 minutes, and then I got to go. 10 minutes, I got to go. Let’s come back to this.”
Now, at first if he has a reaction, see what happens if you can keep to this boundary. So, that’s one strategy I can think is set it up ahead of time, stick to it, but bottom line is you have to have a boundary. Even if he’s mad at you, “How are you supposed to listen forever and ever and ever?” So, you have to have something in place to protect yourself and longterm, your relationship with him. You don’t want to be miserable. You want to enjoy the time you do have. So, be honest, be consistent. It should be something he can be comfortable with eventually.
Okay. You’re making a very good point. Let’s say you’re working with someone who is an addict but not schizophrenic, bipolar, some of these other disorders of which you mentioned even though there’s dual diagnosis and those kinds of thing. So, help us to understand why do some people go on talking? I see it at the university level we have to work. There’s sometimes, not always, but there can be a student that really wants to be heard by the rest of the class or there’s a need there. Not always sure what the need is, but when someone …
So, I have two questions. One is when someone goes on and on, number one, what might be behind that need to go on and on if there’s a normal coherency? Then two, why is it important that we be understood and listened to? Those seem to go together. You’re able to respond to those two questions.
Well, I love why questions because that’s just about as open-ended as you could possibly get. So, there might be a lot of ways to answer that, but some things that come to my mind in just thinking of people and how people react and communicate. Sometimes we lack awareness. So, we really might not know everybody is irritated because we’re talking too much. So, sometimes it’s lack of awareness.
I remember having a class where I had them videotaped themselves and one person watched their video and they go, “Wow. I talk a lot and I never give anybody a break.” I’m like, “Hallelujah,” because she was able to see it, but she just little didn’t realize. So, sometimes they just don’t realize that they’re doing that.
Others, there’s various things. For example, we do think what we have to say is most important, not from a negative, but still in arrogance that what I have to say is most important, and we will think and wait for a pause to say it, but we need to say it to get out what we have in our mind.
So, sometimes that could be a part of it. It could be personality. It could be family. You have those families where that style of communication, all of them are talking a thousand miles an hour for hours. You get them all together, they’re all talking like that. Now in a setting, they’re not picking up on social cues that people are irritated. So, there’s many different ways I think that it plays out.
I think the why questions are it’s hard to even go there. I would just be making up stuff of why some of them. So, there’s lots of themes that you can pull out, but I think most importantly, for yourself, be brave to accurately evaluate yourself. Ask somebody else, “How do I come across? Do I talk too much?”
If somebody else does, tell them. You might not want to do this. That’s a boundary that you might not want to go there, but how wonderful would it be for somebody that everybody is irritated and avoiding them because they talk too much. They don’t know it, and you can say, “It’s exhausting when you talk so much. Can you take breaks sometimes?” They may even be irritated at that moment, but that might change their life for them to have the awareness of how they’re coming across to somebody. So, it might be something you’d consider, but you have to be very brave for that one.
True. That is very true. Is it possible that some people will talk and they go to a place where it seems laborious to try to listen and then we’re giving them negative feedback that they’re unimportant, “It doesn’t make sense to me. I could care less what you’re saying,” these kinds of emotions that come back?
So, some people, is this true that some people, by setting the boundary, some people may try to reinforce what they believe about themselves that, “I am not worthy of being listened to,” and sometimes that person will go on and talk more. So, it sounds very respectful to say, “I’m not sure I’m understanding it. It’s too many words. Is it possible for you to say it a little more succinctly or directly or clearly to me?” Is that what you’re saying?
Yeah. I think that’s a great idea. Just to be honest about what you’re experiencing and you give them a chance because maybe they’re processing out loud. They don’t even have it figured out. They’re talking as they figure it out. So, this is what I do and you don’t have to use this, but sometimes I say, “I have a very short attention span. You got to wrap it up for me.”
I might say something and put it on myself like, “I have ADHD. Please give me the good stuff. Tell me what you’re trying to say. Try to be more concise for me, please.” So, I might put it on myself that there’s something off with me just to help them so I’m not blaming them for something. I can take the hit a little bit or use humor. Those are the two strategies I’ve found are helpful.
Self-humor is what you were talking about, too, because the gift of listening, when we’re listened to, that is just a marvelous gift, isn’t it? When you think about the idea of someone listening, that’s one of the greatest gifts that we can have on this planet. If you think about it, God is always willing. He doesn’t need to sleep or slumber like we do, but he’s always willing to listen to us, and that is a great need.
So, you were talking about this idea of validation and listening. So, if we’re not being respectful and saying, “This is a little too much for me. How about if we stop here and then we’ll come back to it?” That is really a respectful place when you think about it.
Another person has raised a question. This is a text that came in. “What if your spouse had a former gambling addiction and they never had any professional therapy, and from time-to-time, they voice interest in playing the lottery. What steps should be taken or said to them?” Here’s the question again. “What if your spouse had a former gambling addiction, and they never had any professional therapy and from time-to-time, they voice interest in playing the lottery. What steps should be taken or said to them?”
Good question. So, one thing, I think it depends on the dynamic. It may be slightly different if they’re a male or female or personalities, but some things I’m thinking are definitely to be honest. So, to say, “I had a hard time when you were in the middle of your gambling addiction,” and this will presume insight. So, I’ll talk about if they don’t have insight, but if they know they were overboard and that was hard, for the person to be honest is usually okay, just sharing how you feel. They can’t say, “Nuh-uh, you don’t feel that way.” So, that’s usually a good place.
Instead of saying, “You don’t …” or do this. You say, “I get nervous when you talk about gambling because I had a hard time. It was really hard for me to handle when we’re in the middle of it. So, I get scared. When you say it, I just worry that something will happen and you’ll get back into it. How are you experiencing it? What do you think?” Because they might say, “Yeah, I talk about it, but I know that’s not a good idea for me. I won’t actually go back to that.” At least they know where your concern is.
It doesn’t usually work well to overreact and put a bunch of restrictions. It usually backfires, pushes up toward it sometimes. So, I will be careful with that, but I will be very honest with them.
Then it could also be that nothing is going to come of it. So, being careful not to worry before there’s anything to worry about. If they just share that they want to play the lottery but they don’t play the lottery, I don’t know if I would jump on that immediately unless it’s really getting to you and affecting you, and you want to share about your fear.
Otherwise, I will wait, and if there is something that happens, then that’s when you might address it and say, “I see you play the lottery. Last time, it went so far. What are you thinking will stop you this time from going so far?” Maybe they have thought this through and have some boundary.
Here’s the thing is maybe they say, “Well, yeah, but I’m only going to do this.” Well, if they came to that addiction, they’ll do something else. So, they say, “Oh, I’m just going to do this,” then they go past what they planned. You could say, “Hey, you said you were only going to do this. Now, you did this. This is concerning me. What are you thinking about this right now?”
So, that’s going to help them, hopefully, see they’re going down the path they don’t want to go. They made a commitment and then they went against their commitment. So, just be very honest with them about the fears. I think that’s one key factor.
Okay. So, Dr. Hayden, why is self-reflection so important? That’s what you just mentioned. You were asking questions for that person to self-reflect, “What do you think about this? What will happen if …? Have you thought about this? That’s a little more closed in it, but you were much more open in it. Are you thinking about this?” Why is self-reflection questioning so important for the addict or someone who’s behaved in a way that they could succumbed to once again later as was the case of this particular question, I believe?
So, two important aspects. One, as a counselor or if you’re helping people in general. If they can see it for themselves, it tends to work better than if you just tell them. Sometimes when you ask for questions like, “Well, tell about this or what were you thinking?” As you’re asking questions to get information from them, they can see it for themselves. So, it’s a strategy, and Jesus used it. He never said things often. He always asked a question.
So, it helps people look for themselves. So, that’s a good strategy. Also, though, if you’re asking questions and they’re telling you their game plan, what they have in place, that they know they have a problem, that they’re working on setting boundaries for themselves, that’s a whole different thing as a spouse, for sure.
If you know they know their weakness and they’re in the fight, that’s a whole different thing than if they’re oblivious, they think they have no problem whatsoever, it’s going to be a different road. So, it’s a little bit less stressful and maybe you have more trust and patience when you know that they have good insight, they know their problem, and they have a game plan for it. Two different roads there.
So, having those questions is also to gain where are they coming from. Are they accurately viewing this or are they believing the magic that they can do whatever without consequences. You can get an idea of where they’re at.
Yeah. It’s really what Adam and Eve did. There’s a sense of displacement, not realizing that, “I’m behaving in a certain way and I displaced it onto someone else or put it on someone else.” So, we can actually rationalize a lot of things, can’t we? So, you’re describing something important.
Another question just came in through text if I may go to this. It’s similar to this. In fact, it may be the same person. I don’t know. No. It’s a different phone number. Excuse me. “What are some initial steps to help someone who has a gambling problem and it seems they do not believe it as a problem?” This is very common, isn’t it? “What are some initial steps to help someone who has a gambling problem and it seems they do not believe it is a problem?” Very common, isn’t it?
Well, there’s a broad strategy for any kind of addiction when somebody doesn’t think it’s a problem. That is helping them see where there’s incongruencies or opposing things. For example, if they say, “I don’t have any negative consequences,” but their credit card through the roof, and they are losing their house, and there’s these negative consequences that you see very clearly. Then you can have a time of confronting them without it feeling so confrontational, and that’s saying, “You got to help me here. We just lost the car. To me, that’s a negative consequence. I’m shocked. I can’t believe it went that far, but you’re not seeing it as a problem. I don’t know what to do with that.”
So, you just share this questioning, this curiosity, “How does that make sense? I’m missing something.” So, it’s not like you’re saying, “You have a problem. You need to fix it.” You’re saying, “How are you looking at this? I don’t know how to see this. All these things happened. We lost all of this. We had saved for something I thought was really important to us, and yet you don’t think it’s a problem. I don’t know how to fit both of those in my brain. It doesn’t make sense to me.”
Now, they may not have an answer for you right then, but you’re putting two opposing ideas into their brain, and how we naturally are will wrestle. He doesn’t know or she doesn’t know how that works either. Their brain starts going. They’re going to sleep. Their mind is racing like, “I don’t know. Is that a problem? Is that a problem?”
So, you want to stir up something inside them because it’s very rare. We can just say, “You have a problem. Go get help.” Sometimes you do. Sometimes you give somebody an ultimatum. Sometimes you’re trying to do whatever you can to help them see they have a problem, but if they can see it for themselves, it’s going to be better longterm. So, put in the two opposing things together out loud is going to be helpful. So, help them see the negative consequence.
If there’s no negative consequence, ask yourself, “Is it an addiction?” Now, it might already be because one negative consequence is strain on the relationship. So, if you’re the spouse and you’re miserable, there’s already negative consequences. So, it’s already looking like they’re continuing it even though their marriage is at risk.
So, you could even confront that and say, “This is hard on me. I’m exhausted. I worry. It’s overwhelming. Yet, you keep doing it. How do you think I should deal with this? What should I do?” Just putting it out there to help them see the negative that’s coming to you.
So, the more they can see the negatives that are out there that are coming and they keep doing it, the more hopefully at some point they’ll recognize, “I have a problem. I need help.” That’s the thing, too, is that’s Holy Spirit conviction as well. So, at the same time you’re using these strategies, you’re praying, because God’s really good at this. So, he may bring something into their life and, unfortunately, you may pay the consequence. So, if you lose your house or the person ends up in jail, these types of things, you get the consequence, too. So, it’s really hard on families. So, you just have to know you’re walking that road. You may end up with some of the consequence as well.
Thank you. Well, very, very good. We’ve come to the end of our time. We normally end right at 8:00 PM. I want to thank Dr. Julie Hayden. Will you join me in expressing our appreciation to her for an outstanding presentation and dialog? Thank you, Dr. Hayden.
Thank you very much.
I sure appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for being here. I do want to invite you to our next My Therapist Sez that is scheduled, and that’s scheduled on August. That is going to be Balancing Change and Acceptance. Petrea Huynh will be our presenter that evening, and I think you will really enjoy. It’s really tying into what we talked about here this evening. So, it’s a great followup.
I want to thank you for being here this evening. We’re going to have a word of prayer, and that will close us out for the evening. Again, thank you for joining My Therapist Sez, and those who are live streaming and those listening to this broadcast at a later date. Let’s have a word of prayer, shall we?
Father, thank you for biblical truth. Thank you that your truth rises up and gives us keen insight. We are meant to reflect. We are meant to be able to think clearly. This is the gift, so that we’re able to self-regulate and not self-medicate, and that we can function in a way that you created us to function. That really is the joy and thrill of life is to function within the boundaries of biblical truth. So, thank you for science that helps us, and most importantly, we want to thank you for your biblical truth. So, we give you praise this evening. We thank you, and it’s in Jesus’ name that we pray this. Amen.
Thank you again for coming. Have a great evening.
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