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Lori: Welcome everyone to the Family Conference 2020 presented by Rhombus University. The topic covered in this presentation is Real versus Perceived Shame and our speaker is Dr. Luther Smith. Dr. Smith is the Dean of the College, Department Chair, excuse me, Biblical Counseling at Calvary University in Kansas City, Missouri. Dr. Smith have his bachelor’s in psychology, master’s in religious studies, master’s of art in marriage and family, and doctorate of psychology. He has an exceptional ability to appropriately study and apply scripture to life in his presentation style while bringing biblical truths alive in tangible tools. I’m excited for that. Hello, Dr. Smith. Welcome. I’m so glad to have you here.
Dr. Luther Smith: Hello, hello, hello. Good afternoon, guys. Good afternoon. Let’s go ahead and I’m going to go ahead and share my screen here and then we’ll get started. Thank you so much, Lori, for your intro. Can everybody see my wonderful screen here?
Lori: Looks good.
Dr. Luther Smith: Good. So, let’s go ahead and jump right in. Again, my name is Dr. Luther Smith here. Down below is my website. So, if you… There’s things there, I’ve kind of expanded it. I keep adding stuff and then taking away stuff. So, if you ever want to peruse there, there’s theology stuff there and videos and my blog’s there. So, if you guys have a chance and you want to look at it and you can take a look at that.
Dr. Luther Smith: All right, let’s talk about our topic here. Real versus Perceived Shame. I ended up doing this not too long ago, about a month ago, but it was for counselors. And now, we’re going to take a look at how we can either equip parents or how parents could be equipped in understanding what these things are, understanding what shame is and how to deal with both of them.
Dr. Luther Smith: Just a cursory example. Shame comes from the old English word, and it’s basically a feeling of guilt or disgrace, confusion caused by shame, by disgrace, dishonor, insult, loss of esteem or reputation, shameful circumstances, what brings disgrace, modesty, private parts, or literally comes from an old Norse word, literally meaning cheek-redness. So, if you observe some of the characteristics and qualities of shame is, shame is associated with guilt.
Dr. Luther Smith: Now, sometimes we talk about having a feeling of guilt, which is understandable, but guilt is actually a positional word. It’s a word… You don’t feel guilty. You either are, or you aren’t guilty. Now, you may feel feelings associated with that guiltiness, but guilt is more of a positional word. Two, that shame is associated with physical effects. So cheek-redness, blushing, what we would call a downcast countenance counts, when a person looks down, they won’t look you in the eye and stuff like that. Those are physical effects, maybe even crossing their arms, or maybe even sulking into themselves.
Dr. Luther Smith: As a matter of fact, just yesterday, I was talking to a young woman. She is a young girl, as a matter of fact, and I believe she’s about six or seven. She comes over our house often. And I found out that she was not treating her mom very well. So, I decided to approach her and basically talk to her about that and give her some imperatives. Some things that she needs to do in order to continue to come to our house. Because she likes coming to our house. And she did the very same thing. She would refuse to look at me. She would refuse to… I’d try to engage with her, she didn’t want to engage. She was very downcast. Her face got really flushed. So, the shame was there and those physical effects associated with that.
Dr. Luther Smith: Shame is also associated with what I call, again, mind-distress. We saw that in the definition, confusion. Maybe not being able to know what to say. And there’s a reason for that is because when a person has a feeling of shame, their brain goes on I-can’t-work mode. So, they end up, because of the flush nature of where they are and what’s going on in the brain and stuff like that, they can’t talk, because they feel threatened or something like that. So, it’s associated with that also.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, generally, there are two types of shame and we’ll take a look at these just real briefly. One of them is called real shame or what we would call objective shame. And another one is called perceived shame or subjective shame. And it follows, real shame occurs when a person experiences all of the biological, that is the cheek, the redness, the cheek face redness, even the downcastness, the looking away, not creating eye contact, the social, they may withdraw, or they may isolate, or they may insulate, like our lovely young girl that I was talking to. She was insulating. She went into herself and refused to engage and interact. The psychological qualities as well. Maybe even perhaps beating yourself up, someone beating themselves up because they have this particular type of shame that they’re dealing with.
Dr. Luther Smith: And it’s due to objective situations, for example, your child stealing a cookie from the cookie jar before bedtime. You tell them not to steal a cookie from the cookie jar, it’s obvious they did. They violated or broke a rule and you are approaching them asking about that. And it is clear, there is no argument what they did was they broke and violated that.
Dr. Luther Smith: Then, you got perceived shame. This type of shame carries with it the same biological, social, a lot of the mind, confusion, and effects as real shame, as objective shame, it looks the same. But the perception is different. So, for example, as I put down below, a child who believes that he or she is a failure. Now that’s different from them saying that they failed, that they believe that because they failed a class, that they are a failure. And that causes shame in an individual, that causes shame in a child, that causes shame in a young adult. They believe that they are worthless, that their value is attached to what they completed or what they didn’t complete. It’s very different.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, let’s talk about real and objective shame first. I want to start off in Genesis 3, just for a second. We’ll go ahead and read this briefly. And then I want to make some observations from the scriptures, because we find that both perceived and real shame are found in both of these places. We find in Genesis 3, just very briefly, the entrance of the serpent in the garden and the deception of the serpent to Eve. And the effects of all the stuff that takes place.
Dr. Luther Smith: Because, “Then the eyes of both of them were opened.” This is after they ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. “And they knew that they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together and made for themselves loin coverings. They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord among the trees of the garden. Then, the Lord called to the man and said to him, ‘Where are you?’ He said, ‘I heard the sound of You in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid myself.'”
Dr. Luther Smith: Notice the behavior of Adam and Eve after they’ve done this. At first, they had no reason to hide from God amongst the bushes. But they withdrew, they withdrew from him and the Lord God had to call to the man and ask him what happened. So we say they realized that what they did was wrong. This actually comes from a Genesis 2. They were told not to… They could eat from any tree that they wanted except this one. And God gave the stipulations for that. So, they realized what they did was wrong, which is why they went and they hid.
Dr. Luther Smith: As a matter of fact, we see this in verse 10 as well. He said, “Then the Lord called to the man and said to him, ‘Where are you?’ And he said, ‘I heard the sound of You in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked. So I hid myself.'” They attempted to cover up what they did, they sewed fig leaves together and made for themselves loin coverings. So, they understood what they did was wrong. They understood the reality of what they did. And they attempted to try to cover it up with their own efforts, with their own attempts.
Dr. Luther Smith: We see that they hid from the Creator in verse eight. Again, I find this to be very interesting, that the association of God being a father and the association of the reflection of what fathers are supposed to do in light of training and instructing their children, whenever children, it doesn’t matter the age, when they do something that is wrong, they hide, they insulate, they cover. It’s fascinating to see. And then, lastly, again, they were afraid of their Creator. Again, this word afraid is the first time that it occurs in the book of the scriptures. There wasn’t any fear or terror of God, but now there is, because of the expectation of what they’ve done.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, why is this real shame or objective shame? Well, again, we talked about this. They were told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 2:15-16, there was a clear delineation of what they were to do, what they were to avoid, what they were to stay away from, what they could eat, what they couldn’t eat. It was objective. They didn’t have to argue about this. This was clear, objective rules, guidelines. This is where it is.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, why does God respond this way? I wish we had more time to go through this, but this is pretty, pretty cool. Let’s all start by highlighting some of the observations that God did when He’s dealing with objective shame. One of them is that God ask questions of Adam and Eve. We see this in verse 10, in verse 11 and 12. In verse 10, or I’m sorry, in verse nine. “Then, the Lord God called to the man and said to him, ‘Where are you?'” It’s not like God didn’t know where they were. He knew where they were, but he asked questions to draw out the man and Eve.
Dr. Luther Smith: Verse 11, “Who told you that you were naked?” He doesn’t say, “Hey, you know you’re naked, right?” He says, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you come eaten from the tree which I commanded you, you must not eat?” It’s not like God didn’t know any of this. God knew all of this stuff. But He’s asking questions because this is instructive for Adam and Eve. He wants them to get something here.
Dr. Luther Smith: God details the consequences of their actions. We see this in chapter 16 to 19, that God tells them what’s going to happen to them as a result of eating from this tree. He gives them the consequences for this, that because of this, mankind is going to suffer, they’re going to experience conflict, you’re going to receive pain and childbearing, you’re going to labor and toil, the ground is cursed because of you. I mean, all of these things, He’s laying out the consequences of their actions due to the objective shame, because their actions don’t affect just them, but everyone else around them.
Dr. Luther Smith: God cares for them. Verse 20 and 21. We don’t really look at these verses right here, we kind of gloss over these, but they’re very, very important. Again, it says, “Now, the man called his wife’s name, Eve, because she was the mother of all the living, the Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.” He cares for them, even in the midst of all of this stuff.
Dr. Luther Smith: And then, God drove them out for their and our benefit. So, He lays down some boundaries. Am we see this in verse 23 and 24. He says, “Then the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us knowing good and evil. And now he might stretch out his hands and take also from the tree of life, eat and live forever.’ Therefore, the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. He drove the man out at the east of the garden of Eden and stationed a cherubim with a flaming sword.”
Dr. Luther Smith: He drove them out for their, and our benefit. Could you imagine if Adam and Eve in this state took from the tree of life and ate in this position? There would’ve been no way for God to deal with this. We would’ve had this forever. But because of what he has done, as painful as it was to Adam and Eve, it was good for them. And good for those who would come afterwards, even though it’s difficult, it is instructive.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, some principles to consider from this text, obviously this text is about how God deals with men in a merciful and gracious way, and in a just way. But there are some principles that we could learn here. First of all, listening intently to the person who has objective shame from what they’ve done, being a listener. You notice in the text, when God, when Adam gives and Eve gives an answer, He allows them to finish. So listening intently.
Dr. Luther Smith: Asking them questions only related to the issue. God is really good at this. He asks them questions only related to what they’re talking about. Give the consequences in relation to the situation and grieve over this. Obviously, in Genesis, we read basically the fall of humanity. And this should put, in some sense… We should grieve over this like, “Wow, this is really bad. This is the reason why things are the way they are. This is bad.” In the same way, we should grieve over this, “Wow, man, it’s terrible that you did this, because of the consequences it’s going to yield.”
Dr. Luther Smith: Caring for them throughout the process usually by caring for them personally. Again, showing that you love them, showing that you care for them, showing that you’re there for them, saying that and displaying that is important. Of course, limiting access, building boundaries until they comprehend and learn the lesson. That’s kind of the idea here, because, again, the shame that they’re experiencing is warranted. It is warranted. They should be experiencing this. And that it may have detrimental effects. So, limiting access and building boundaries around that, not just because of the effects that it yields, but so that they won’t have to experience this shame anymore. That’s kind of the idea.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, very briefly, let’s talk about perceived shame. Mark 7:1-13. Oh my gosh. I could spend a whole 30 minutes on this one. But essentially Mark 7:1-13 talks about how the Pharisees were using the law in an improper way. They were using it for righteousness, and judging and evaluating people based upon that. Oh my goodness. Chapter seven verses one to 13.
Dr. Luther Smith: Matter of fact, I’ll just go ahead and read just a snippet of this. Chapter seven, verses one to 13, he goes, I’ll start at verse nine, actually, I’ll start at verse eight. He says, “Neglecting the commandment of God you hold to the tradition of men.” These are manmade rules that they had set up that nullified the commandments of God. He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandments in order to keep your tradition.” All right. He says, “You claim that you honor me or honor God by these laws. But instead, you set up all of these laws and these laws basically throw people into shame. They condemn them and drive them away from me.”
Dr. Luther Smith: So, there was an old tradition that was established among the Pharisees, and they had assumed that if you held this law, that you wouldn’t break the others. But these laws that they set up were not God-given. The Pharisees question Jesus, we see this in verse five of this text here. Jesus rebukes them for their hypocrisy, because of the fact that they set up all these manmade laws and were holding people to these standards. They were being actors. They were posing as if they were righteous. And then, they would shame people who didn’t do these, these oral laws. And the verdict, they invalidated the truth of God, mainly that God was gracious and merciful.
Dr. Luther Smith: And why do we come to that conclusion? Why does Jesus respond this way? What are some points to consider? One is that the ordinances contained in the law were also intended to guide their conduct. That’s part of what the law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel for, was to guide their conduct. And every single conduct that they had, that was given to them, was an expression of grace and mercy that was underscored under this law.
Dr. Luther Smith: The law was to underscore the attributes of God. Not only that He was holy and just, but that He was loving kind, merciful, gracious, that he was patient and that they were to exhibit those. The law was intended to show the need for a savior. Obviously, we see this in the law as well. It pointed again to God’s grace manifest in Christ and, again, the law also underscored the savior himself as it promised that one would be sent to the nation of Israel and the world.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, how does one deal with subjective shame? That is shame that is perceived. This is shame that is not grounded in any type of a objective rule or anything else like that. Someone has created a law in their own minds that they believe that they have to live up to and they don’t. How do we deal with individuals, children, young adults, even adults? Again, listening intently, asking them questions only related to the issue, doesn’t this look familiar?
Dr. Luther Smith: We don’t change all but two, we challenge the perception of the person. This is what Jesus does in Mark 7, he challenges the Pharisees and their false rules that they’ve placed on themselves and everyone else. And then, we care for them throughout the process, usually by caring for them personally. Again, challenging them by asking them questions, and leading them to the truth.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, some things to consider. One, conduct may vary depending on the factors, for instance, you may approach someone differently. For example, when I’m talking to young children, like that seven year old, what I usually like to do is I like to go over and kneel down and look at them face to face. I like to get on their level. I think that that’s very important. Now, as an adult, you may not do that, you may just approach them as they are. For young adults, I’d like to have them sit down next to me or right across from me, so that I can see them and talk with them and see their facial expressions and stuff like that. That gives me indicators of where I need to go. So, the conduct may vary depending on factors.
Dr. Luther Smith: Asking questions is a good thing. Sometimes, especially, with young adults, we assume that young adults, when their lips are moving, they’re lying. We don’t give them the benefit of the doubt usually. And I understand that. I understand the reason why that is. But asking questions is a good thing, because it helps draw out. We’re not assuming anything about the person that we’re talking to. We’re asking them questions because we want them to see that we are attempting to try to get to the truth and we want to hear what they have to say. It increases efficacy. It increases positive interaction. So, asking questions is a good thing. And we want to ask them in a way that’s not threatening either. We want to do it in a way that is inquisitive.
Dr. Luther Smith: Grace is the goal. Remember, they all, especially for those who are dealing with objective shame, they already know they’re guilty. They already know that. We don’t have to rub it in. We don’t have to grind it in. We don’t have to continue to pummel that. They already know that. What we need to display is grace. And that needs to be constant.
Dr. Luther Smith: Consistency is the goal. If it is objective shame they’re dealing with and something like that, and there are boundaries that need to be set up to continue to keep those boundaries there and talk about them every now and then. Return back to it maybe a week from now, or two weeks from then, from when it occurred. To touch base, to talk about these things, to be consistent. If it is perceived, that if someone’s dealing with low self-esteem or something like that, to continue to ask, “Hey, how are you doing? We talked about this a week ago. I just wanted to check in and see how you’re doing. How are you doing with that? What’s going on? Tell me your thoughts.” Consistency is always the goal. So, conduct, asking questions, exhibiting grace and consistency.
Dr. Luther Smith: You can talk about how you feel in relation to how they feel as well. I feel disappointed that you took the cookie out of the cookie jar. Because it gives them a focus that their actions, especially if it’s objective, shows that it didn’t affect just them, but everyone else that they’re around. And even the subjective, because you have this perceived you about yourself, it’s affecting me, because I want to connect with you.
Dr. Luther Smith: Avoiding the consequence because of the negative feelings involved is not dealing with it. We have to confront this. God does it in his word. He confronts this all the time and He expects us to do the same. Now, the way that we confront is obviously a point to consider. But we never, ever should avoid the consequences. We always have to give that.
Dr. Luther Smith: And then have them understand that real and perceived shame has ramifications for them and for others. That this doesn’t happen in a vacuum. But that especially being in relationship and interaction, that this shame has effects for others around [inaudible 00:27:23] those who are dealing with it.
Dr. Luther Smith: Hey, look at that. I finished on time. I think I deserve a star for that one. Any questions? I would ask again, as Lori had underscored, if you guys have any questions, just go ahead and just unmute your mic and then I’ll answer your questions from there.
Dr. Luther Smith: Oftentimes, especially, if they’re very little. If they’re young, if they’re possibly young children, we don’t want them to hurt. We don’t want them to experience negative feelings. Because we want the best for our kids. But again, let’s take our cue from God himself. I mean, He gives the stipulation, He gives the outline, He gives the rule, He gives the command, they break it and He sets down the consequences and those consequences are disastrous.
Dr. Luther Smith: But nevertheless, He lays them down anyway. I think that we need to learn that. That our children, they need to learn positive as well as negative when we’re talking to our counselees. In some ways, we don’t sugarcoat it. You know what I’m saying? We tell them, “Look at what happened, because of the action and the consequences that have happened.” So, I find that to be probably the biggest challenge of this is because parents, when they see the shame on their faces, when they see the downcast, they want to soften the blow. When it’s objective shame, no, don’t soften it, don’t soften the blow. But instead embrace them while they’re experiencing that.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, an example I’ll give was this young girl that I talked to yesterday. She likes to come over our house. She loves hanging out with the missus and the little misses. And she enjoys that, because she’s basically connected and we have a bond with her. So, we found out that she was essentially not… She wasn’t respecting her mom. She would yell at her mom, scream at her mom. When her mom asked her to do something, she wouldn’t do it. So, we’ve been more with this family.
Dr. Luther Smith: Well, anyway, I heard it. So, what I did was, is I said, “Is that true? Are you disrespecting your mom?” And all of a sudden, you see… you know what I’m saying? The flush face, the down… I mean, it was there. And I didn’t let up. I said, “Are you disrespecting your mom? Is that true?” She went… She didn’t answer. Yes. She kind of… And I said, “It is very important that you don’t do that.” You know what I’m saying? “You only have one mom, she loves you. This, that, and the other.” I was like, “I better not hear you do that again, otherwise you cannot come over our house. Because I can’t have you disrespecting your mom. Because if you do that, who’s to say that you won’t disrespect us?”
Dr. Luther Smith: And I was like, “Is that clear?” And she went… I said, “We love having you here. We love having you here. You’re such a bright, young girl, you’re really fun to be around. You’re really cool. You know what I’m saying? My daughter loves you. My wife adores you. She’d adopt you if she could. I think you’re just a wonderful girl. You’re very smart.” I said, “But we can’t have this.” That’s what I’m talking about. You know what I’m saying? That is a perfect example. We didn’t let up. The boundaries were made clear. And at the same time, we gave her grace in that situation as well.
Dr. Luther Smith: Let’s see, “Do you have any examples on how to deal with perceived shame as a family? As many times, this is even a generational pattern, it’s based on critical parents, perfectionism.” Oh, this is so good. This is a great question. I love this. As a matter of fact, I just got finished, not too long ago, counseling a young girl who lives in a family just like this, just like this.
Dr. Luther Smith: This is especially within the evangelical Christian community. This is common. And I’ve had to watch out for this. I’ve had friends that have had to watch out for this. So, this is really good. So, when you’re dealing with… Usually what happens is you don’t deal with the family wholesale. Usually what happens is the child will go off the rails and then you’ll have to work with the child. And then all of a sudden, the child, they’ll change and they’ll be consistent. And then, the family will be brought in.
Dr. Luther Smith: However, if you do have a family that you work with altogether, I would ask a couple of questions. First of all, I would ask them, do you, as a family, understand the word grace? What does grace look like? What does it look like to you? Can you define that or describe that? And then, we would define it or describe it, talk about it. I would bring examples, examples from the scriptures. Maybe not overt, if they’re unbelievers. Maybe talk about it in such a way that if I were to give you a present or a gift, is that gift something you’ve earned, something that you deserve? Or am I doing it out of love for you? Talk about it in those terms.
Dr. Luther Smith: So, after the word has been defined, I would ask them, in terms of this particular issue, maybe, perhaps they’re having fights with their children or something like that, in this particular issue, how would you… What would grace look like in this particular arena? What would it look like? So, how would you guys talk to each other? What would you guys be doing? And how would it look different from what you are doing now? Does that make sense? Getting them to not only understand the concept of grace, but see it practically. Thank you.
Dr. Luther Smith: And then, after we talk a little bit about that, I would ask them. So, if you were to implement this, after going through, and kind of talking, if you were to implement this grace and do it, how would it change your family structure? How would it change the way that you see yourselves? How would it change the way that you see others? And then, from there, we would begin to start to give skills, maybe perhaps doing a speaker-listener. Taking turns. So, maybe having like sponge ball or something like that. Because the whole purpose is to express grace within the discussion.
Dr. Luther Smith: And then, dealing with the perfectionism. So, are you going to make mistakes when you do this? Of course you are. Of course you’re going to make mistakes. When you tried to ride a bike, were you perfect the first time you did it? You know what I’m saying? Were you perfect the first time you did it or did you pick him back up? Did you scrape off the knee? Did you kiss the boo-boo? Did you wipe it and then tell him to get back on the horse and then do it again? You know what I’m saying?
Dr. Luther Smith: See, God understands that not only are we fallen creatures, but we also have limited perspectives and we don’t see things. That’s why He tells us that we always need to grace each other. So, I would start from there, defining grace, what would it look like? How can we do it in the family? The effects of what it would have in the family. And then building those skills based upon that reality.
Dr. Luther Smith: We got time for one more, or I can just wax poetic for four minutes too. I can do that. I think that just to underscore your point, that really grace is the antidote for shame. It really is. And especially us as believers. I mean, we experience shame before God when we sin. And God has removed our shame by his grace.
Dr. Luther Smith: Titus 2, “It is grace that instructs us to deny ungodliness and live righteously, sensibly, and godly in this present age.” Grace is the key. And especially within the realm of the family. If the family is indeed the underscore by which God has established this reality and how we are to live. I mean, even the body of Christ is described as a family. We’re described as brothers, sisters. We have mothers in the faith, fathers in the faith, daughters in the faith. Paul refers to Timothy as his beloved son. So, grace should be found not just in the unit of the body of Christ, but also underscored in the unit of the family. I think that’s very, very important. And it’s definitely not more law. It’s more grace.
Dr. Luther Smith: Yeah. I don’t know exactly if healthy is the word. I do know that there is a shame that is beneficial. So, if I feel shame because I used to believe that a certain group was inferior to me and I feel shame about that. Well, then, yeah, I would say that that’s helpful. Because that gives me an anchor by which now I don’t view that anymore. And I was ashamed that I believed that. But to stay there, to stay there and go that I need to purposefully shame myself all the time to show this other group that I’m doing my due diligence, that’s law.
Dr. Luther Smith: Because now you’re shaming yourself to show that you’re just to them. Does that make sense? So, I would say that, yeah, if a person has a light bulb moment, I know I’m probably going over, but that’s okay. If someone has a light bulb moment and they go, “Oh man, I believe that these people were just… I thought that they were inferior to me,” you know what I’m saying? And not only that, I treated them as such and that was bad. And that was wrong. And I shouldn’t have did that. We want to amen that. You know what I’m saying? Because that’s not reality.
Dr. Luther Smith: Every person is created in the image of God. And everybody is significant. Not because of their ethnicity, but because of the Creator. Because they’re created in God’s image and we could learn so much from each other. But to stay there and to beat yourself up and go, “Oh my gosh, I’m such a… I’m inherently racist,” or, “I do this,” to stay there is to put a law on yourself and that’s not cool.
Lori: Thank you all for joining us at the Family Conference 2020. We hope you have gained new insights and tools you can use. We will keep you informed of any upcoming events with Rhombus and you can check our website at www.gorhombus.com. Thank you so much, Dr. Smith. I really enjoyed your presentation.
Dr. Luther Smith: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Lori. [crosstalk 00:41:17].
Lori: Thank you all. Have a great day. Thank you.
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